National Forum

Shorts Vs Skorts

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Replying To oneoff:  "But that's my point. How is a delegate to know what players etc want if they're not told? Equally if clubs are asking what's wanted and players don't bother showing up etc who's at fault? It's the same thing with football and hurling. This idea that clubs etc are somehow mind readers is in itself an issue."
Should be voted on by the players.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2346 - 08/05/2025 19:01:02    2607694

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Here's a thing. I'm assuming the Camogie Association works like the GAA, in that every single member of the association has the chance to have a voice on motions going to Congress.

Say for example there was a motion going to GAA Congress that men had to wear skorts too, and our players were 99% against it (would probably be un-PC to tell you about the odd man out!). Here's what would happen:
- Congress motions would be circulated to clubs well in advance of Congress itself.
- Club would discuss them at a meeting, listen to the Players' Rep on this one, and mandate the County Board delegate to vote against it when it comes up for discussion there.
- Assuming the majority of other clubs felt the same, County Board would oppose the motion, and mandate its delegates to Congress to vote against it there.
- And assuming the majority of counties felt the same and did the same, the motion would be lost.

If something broke down along the way as the shorts/skorts motion made its way to Camogie Congress, then either:
- Delegates didn't vote the way they were supposed to, or
- Players didn't sufficiently make their voices heard when they had the opportunity.

There's a strong chance it was the second one. Players often don't pay attention to motions for County Conventions and Congress, even when those motions could end up affecting them directly.

Something I don't understand is that since the motion was lost at Camogie Congress in April 2024, why it's taken over a year for the players to make a stand. Every single one of the players who wore shorts last weekend, who are wearing them this week in Dublin club matches, and who intend to wear them next weekend in Cork v Waterford, wore skorts as normal last year.

What's changed now, to bring it to a head?"
In Wexford for example, clubs were only asked about replacing skorts with shorts by the delegates. There was no question put to clubs about adding shorts as an option. Wexford delegates at the AGM went ahead and voted down both motions. Players have been working in the background the last year but getting nowhere and not being heard. Trying to do it the right way but the association just came back with saying they'll work on designing a new skort!

goreyll (Wexford) - Posts: 163 - 08/05/2025 20:04:50    2607698

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Here's a thing. I'm assuming the Camogie Association works like the GAA, in that every single member of the association has the chance to have a voice on motions going to Congress.

Say for example there was a motion going to GAA Congress that men had to wear skorts too, and our players were 99% against it (would probably be un-PC to tell you about the odd man out!). Here's what would happen:
- Congress motions would be circulated to clubs well in advance of Congress itself.
- Club would discuss them at a meeting, listen to the Players' Rep on this one, and mandate the County Board delegate to vote against it when it comes up for discussion there.
- Assuming the majority of other clubs felt the same, County Board would oppose the motion, and mandate its delegates to Congress to vote against it there.
- And assuming the majority of counties felt the same and did the same, the motion would be lost.

If something broke down along the way as the shorts/skorts motion made its way to Camogie Congress, then either:
- Delegates didn't vote the way they were supposed to, or
- Players didn't sufficiently make their voices heard when they had the opportunity.

There's a strong chance it was the second one. Players often don't pay attention to motions for County Conventions and Congress, even when those motions could end up affecting them directly.

Something I don't understand is that since the motion was lost at Camogie Congress in April 2024, why it's taken over a year for the players to make a stand. Every single one of the players who wore shorts last weekend, who are wearing them this week in Dublin club matches, and who intend to wear them next weekend in Cork v Waterford, wore skorts as normal last year.

What's changed now, to bring it to a head?"
Possibly you're wrong on two points, many/most clubs don't have a player's rep and if they do they may not agree with him/her.
Gaelic footballers and hurlers failed to get heard through the channels you suggest and only got their demands met by setting up their own structures GPA/CPA to make their voice heard.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 912 - 08/05/2025 21:18:57    2607708

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Possibly you're wrong on two points, many/most clubs don't have a player's rep and if they do they may not agree with him/her.
Gaelic footballers and hurlers failed to get heard through the channels you suggest and only got their demands met by setting up their own structures GPA/CPA to make their voice heard."
In theory players have to be paid up members of the club and if the acted in unison at an AGM the could effect change. However I think the point you making is that going that way would perhaps require a level of coordination across all clubs then to a county board and on to a Congress that would make it almost impossible. The more effective course of action is what is happening now and have the weight of public opinion make people see sense. However I still believe that unless players hold their own club committees accountable nothing will ever change and the only way to do that is turn up at the AGM and demand it. If the committee feels that players shouldn't be heard then they stop playing. Nobody is getting paid to play so withdrawing your service is not going to cost anything.
BTW this is a men and women issue.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1976 - 09/05/2025 04:17:47    2607724

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Replying To sligo joe:  "What do you mean by the "ultimate" conclusion, by definition a conclusion is ultimate?
It's not undemocratic to use whatever law abiding means available to get change.
The teams, Cork and Waterford have clearly stated that they are willing to accept the consequences of breaking the rule so then it will be up to the camogie authority to enforce the rule (or not).
If the association decides to allow the game go ahead is the association acting undemocratically, I don't think so."
I have already posted a reply but it seems it didn't make the cut, so, to simplify things the bottom line is its not an option to see rhe tail wagging the dog.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3181 - 09/05/2025 08:54:17    2607742

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Something in the almost week this story has been going on I've noticed it how many, mostly females, have been very quick to blame it all on men. Either purposely ignoring it just not knowing that most of the Camogie Association decision makers are in fact female.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1651 - 09/05/2025 12:42:44    2607803

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Camogie match in Meath abandoned now because of players wearing shorts and refusing to change. It's hard enough at times to get players to stick with Camogie without this type of guff. Common sense seems to home prevailed in Dublin.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2346 - 09/05/2025 13:34:00    2607815

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Possibly you're wrong on two points, many/most clubs don't have a player's rep and if they do they may not agree with him/her.
Gaelic footballers and hurlers failed to get heard through the channels you suggest and only got their demands met by setting up their own structures GPA/CPA to make their voice heard."
GAA clubs are by rule supposed to have a Players' Rep on their Executive Committee, and this person must have played competitively in the preceding 12 or 24 months (can't remember offhand which it is - our own Players' Rep of the past few years is still a current player anyway, so it doesn't arise in our case).

There's no such corresponding rule for Camogie Association, but still, you'd like to think that when a club is considering such a motion, they'd canvass the views of their players, take them on board, and decide accordingly.

As regards what you say about GPA/CPA - the GPA is still only one voice at Congress. I'm not sure the CPA ever had a voice there at all.

So, even if absolutely 100% of all players felt the same way about something, if they only went through the GPA, they'd be just one voice amongst many.

To effect the change they'd be seeking, they'd still have to go through the club & County Board channels as well.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2880 - 09/05/2025 14:58:57    2607836

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Replying To Bon:  "Camogie match in Meath abandoned now because of players wearing shorts and refusing to change. It's hard enough at times to get players to stick with Camogie without this type of guff. Common sense seems to home prevailed in Dublin."
Thing is, while the Dublin Camogie County Board is being widely praised for its "common sense" approach (and I'm inclined to agree with that view myself), strictly speaking, they're still in breach of the Camogie Rule Book.

If the Camogie Association wanted to play real hardball on this, they could sanction them. Nuclear option would be to declare null and void all matches where players wore shorts instead of skorts. They may even be able to suspend Dublin teams from inter-county competition as a result of their County Board not running the sport "properly" (and note the inverted commas!).

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2880 - 09/05/2025 15:02:50    2607840

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The Camogie association once had a development plan in 2020-23
It had a range of goals but some important ones listed are relevant here

Goal 7 - To revitalize the Camogie brand and identity - not going well with outdated rules on sports gear
Goal 8 - To develop commercially to power and drive our core business - not going well with bad publicity (or maybe they are going for the Donald Trump method)
Goal 9 - To inspire more people to watch and engage with Camogie, locally, nationally and internationally - this fiasco is doing the opposite

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1401 - 09/05/2025 15:18:49    2607844

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "GAA clubs are by rule supposed to have a Players' Rep on their Executive Committee, and this person must have played competitively in the preceding 12 or 24 months (can't remember offhand which it is - our own Players' Rep of the past few years is still a current player anyway, so it doesn't arise in our case).

There's no such corresponding rule for Camogie Association, but still, you'd like to think that when a club is considering such a motion, they'd canvass the views of their players, take them on board, and decide accordingly.

As regards what you say about GPA/CPA - the GPA is still only one voice at Congress. I'm not sure the CPA ever had a voice there at all.

So, even if absolutely 100% of all players felt the same way about something, if they only went through the GPA, they'd be just one voice amongst many.

To effect the change they'd be seeking, they'd still have to go through the club & County Board channels as well."
Surely you recognise that the GPA/CPA effected change through player power, by the threat that their members would withdraw from playing, not by ventilating their wishes at club and county board meetings, that had been tried and had failed.
Jarlath Burns at the start of his term more or less said he would bring the finals back to August. Now he says that will be a matter for a future president. I've no doubt Jarlath could have his August finals passed at Congress but he pulled back because the GPA told him very clearly they wouldn't wear it whether it was passed or not. Change is not all as smoothly democratically structured as you say.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 912 - 09/05/2025 16:08:51    2607858

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Thing is, while the Dublin Camogie County Board is being widely praised for its "common sense" approach (and I'm inclined to agree with that view myself), strictly speaking, they're still in breach of the Camogie Rule Book.

If the Camogie Association wanted to play real hardball on this, they could sanction them. Nuclear option would be to declare null and void all matches where players wore shorts instead of skorts. They may even be able to suspend Dublin teams from inter-county competition as a result of their County Board not running the sport "properly" (and note the inverted commas!)."
I get what your saying but at club level especially I don't think they can really afford to be this fussy. I was involved with adult camogie and it can be hard enough to get 15 for a match at times and some clubs are struggling to keep it going, the less barriers the better for players.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2346 - 09/05/2025 19:18:36    2607894

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Munster camogie final postponed ahead of planned skort protest

Ah this is getting ridiculous. Such nonsense. Give them the choice.

Square_B (Leitrim) - Posts: 1318 - 09/05/2025 20:47:01    2607902

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Thing is, while the Dublin Camogie County Board is being widely praised for its "common sense" approach (and I'm inclined to agree with that view myself), strictly speaking, they're still in breach of the Camogie Rule Book.

If the Camogie Association wanted to play real hardball on this, they could sanction them. Nuclear option would be to declare null and void all matches where players wore shorts instead of skorts. They may even be able to suspend Dublin teams from inter-county competition as a result of their County Board not running the sport "properly" (and note the inverted commas!)."
The Camogie association should have been quick to act straight away. Emergency meeting, change the rule in place. End of story. It's embarrassing at this stage.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8401 - 09/05/2025 21:49:49    2607918

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Has Munster Camogie no cop-on, no PR understanding, at all?! Seriously, in a grown-up organisation, this nonsense would have been sorted out in 5 minutes. People who are as petty, and as dictatorial, as that, well, it makes you wonder about the quality of every other decision they make. If they can't even get something as trivial as this right, God help us.

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 293 - 09/05/2025 23:14:49    2607933

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What are Munster camoige at?were they afraid of publicity?what happens if delegates vote against girls/ladies having the choice of what to wear?

CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2522 - 10/05/2025 01:23:07    2607944

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Your knowledge of how camóige is administered is rather deficient..

Tell us how "the GAA" runs camóige."
Not surprised by the comments on here! And not surprised that the technicalities were picked up on, long before the actual issue!

Mea culpa for associating the game of camogie (women's hurling) with the GAA. Mea culpa for associating rule governance of the game as coming from Croke Park. Where does the Camogie Association sit, btw?

Mea culpa for my mistakes, which ould barney grunt seems to think is the biggest sin ever.

But here is the crux…action! Not idle words from old-timers stuck to the past.

Isn't it wonderful to see 'women power'/'player power', opponents on the field standing together off the field, forcing the GAA because the CA is part and parcel of Gaelic games in Ireland, no matter what way you look at it, to postpone that Munster Final? Fair play to the lassies of Cork and Waterford, and f$$k Wimbledon!

If the GAA and the CA are so detached and separate, why is Orla Jacob part and parcel of the Sunday Game? Answer me that! She's great, btw!


Btw also, I hope nobody on here still votes for De Va Lera. He died along time ago. The comely maidens dancing at the crossroads can now wear pants! And hurl! His ideals have 'almost' died, too!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2254 - 10/05/2025 01:27:31    2607945

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Thing is, while the Dublin Camogie County Board is being widely praised for its "common sense" approach (and I'm inclined to agree with that view myself), strictly speaking, they're still in breach of the Camogie Rule Book.

If the Camogie Association wanted to play real hardball on this, they could sanction them. Nuclear option would be to declare null and void all matches where players wore shorts instead of skorts. They may even be able to suspend Dublin teams from inter-county competition as a result of their County Board not running the sport "properly" (and note the inverted commas!)."
F&&k the antiquated rule book. Shred it! Let the CA press the nuclear button! The players are also willing to press it. They had their finger on it! And would have donned SHORTS on Sunday!

No players= no game!

The players have now called the CA/GAA's bluff! That's why the MUNSTER FINAL has been delayed.

Come out of the fog, Pikeman!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2254 - 10/05/2025 02:00:13    2607946

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Very simple. Only women should be making decisions about what women should wear on the GAA pitch.

Headtheball1 (Louth) - Posts: 78 - 10/05/2025 07:00:43    2607949

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Replying To Headtheball1:  "Very simple. Only women should be making decisions about what women should wear on the GAA pitch."
How many of the delegates who voted against the motion were men?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2801 - 10/05/2025 10:34:25    2607978

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