brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 414 - 01/04/2025 13:42:20    2599934

@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8634 - 01/04/2025

A likely 6 league berths, as maybe only one Prov Champ is not in prior AIC QFs.

If 6, that's some change from the current 7 - wow :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3168 - 01/04/2025 14:06:54    2599942

At the end of the day, provincial winners were the only counties to go direct to the All Ireland quarter finals. All others had to negotiate the qualifier route. As league qualification has now essentially replaced the traditional qualifiers - provincial winners only should be qualifying through provinces. All others based on league qualification. Provinces themselves want to reward provincial winners. Crazy to reward provincial winners and runners up the same. All provinces regardless of seeding etc. can only produce one winner.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8643 - 01/04/2025 16:43:24    2599986

Going over a bit of old ground here as well:
Meath and Cavan missed out on the 2023 All Ireland series because lower league Clare and Sligo qualified as provincial runners up. Down missed out on the 2024 All Ireland series because lower league Clare qualified as provincial runners up.
I'm not aware of Meath, Cavan or Down bringing a motion against it. Is there anything to be said for the counties impacted by lower league counties qualifying as provincial runners bringing a motion for provincial winners only to qualify through the provincial championship route?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8643 - 01/04/2025 17:41:42    2599998

We are not a million miles from ideal scenario but the disrespect shown to div 1 this season for obvious reasons show we need to change again.

If we are going to persist with Feb to July for county teams we need to cut the games AND make them meaningful.

It's blindingly obvious now the provincials should start in Feb and should be finished by Paddy's Weekend in March.

Then league becomes part of championship and still separate.

Start it in April so we have sufficient gap from provincial finals and teams can train to hearts content.

League runs as normal but no final.
Top sixteen will be 4 provincial champions plus Tailteann team and the highest ranked teams from league.

Here's the fun part and ensure teams try for every game. Provincial champions and top 4 from league are kept apart and top 4 are placed in opposite quarters in knockout stage. Provincial champions and top ranked teams from league guaranteed home field advantage in last sixteen.

No more groups or anything. After league. Teams have 4 matches to win Sam Maguire.

Less matches but far more at stake and excitement through the roof.

As for lack of Div 1 final. Option to start the following league off with the top 2 teams from every division from the previous years in Croke Park with the trophy at stake. That also helps with the imbalance of some teams having 3 home and 4 away in the fixtures.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 01/04/2025 17:55:30    2600000

@shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 291 - 01/04/2025

So your match count is:
League 7, Prov (1-4) & AIC (1-4) for a total 9-15 over a 24-week season?

While 15 is good, it's likely available to just one team - the Ulster Champ taking the scenic route.
And the match guarantee of 9 is a bit short (15 weeks off?)

Are you familiar with my combined AILC, encompassing League & Provs before short AIC?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3168 - 01/04/2025 19:16:06    2600014

Some counties are complaining about the gap from provincial knockout to All Ireland or Tailteann.
Ulster losing quarter finalists could enter the McKenna Cup? Leinster losing quarter finalists into the O'Byrne Cup? Munster losing quarter finalists and 2 Leinster preliminary round losers into the McGrath Cup? 2 Connacht losing quarter finalists (New York excluded), Ulster preliminary round loser and 1 Leinster preliminary round loser into the FBD Cup?
Those competitions were secondary competitions anyway. They could become more secondary in nature. Sure counties wouldn't want to involved but they would merely provide game time between provincial knockout and next game. This could also be the case if the idea of provincial championships before league was to surprisingly gain traction.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8643 - 01/04/2025 19:45:55    2600016

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 01/04/2025 20:05:48    2600017

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8643 - 01/04/2025 21:47:36    2600035

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4446 - 02/04/2025 09:11:26    2600062

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2185 - 02/04/2025 10:01:42    2600070

A provincial tiered group stage is possible.
ULSTER (Top 2 to semi finals)
Group A: Donegal, Monaghan, Derry, Down.
Group B: Armagh, Tyrone, Cavan, Fermanagh.
LEINSTER (Top 2 to semi finals)
Group A: Dublin, Louth, Kildare, Laois.
Group B: Meath, Offaly, Westmeath, Wexford.
LEINSTER & ULSTER TIER 2 (Top 2 to final)
Antrim, Wicklow, Carlow, Longford.
MUNSTER (Top 2 to final)
Kerry, Cork, Clare, Limerick.
CONNACHT (Top 2 to final)
Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo.
CONNACHT & MUNSTER TIER 2 (Top 2 to final)
Leitrim, Tipperary, London, Waterford.

Whammo makes some counter points e.g. a Connacht title being more difficult for Sligo. On balance the above can offer more fixture certainty though but yeah, debatable.
The 3rd placed teams from the 6 provincial groups could playoff for 3 places in a knockout All Ireland 16.
The 2 provincial Tier 2 winners could contest the Tailteann Cup final. The Tailteann Cup winner could playoff in an all expenses paid trip away to New York for the final place in the All Ireland 16.
The All Ireland 16 can be a straight knockout:
ROUND 1A
Provincial winners v Seed 4 based on league ranking.
ROUND 1B
Provincial runners up v Seed 3 based on league ranking.
QUARTER FINALS
1A winners v 1B winners in Croke Park.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8643 - 02/04/2025 10:59:23    2600080

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4446 - 02/04/2025 16:38:01    2600162

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8643 - 02/04/2025 17:59:48    2600170

Starting in Feb and finishing second last week in August would be absolutely fine. Clubs start week in August with only all Ireland finalists potentially pushing back opening round.

more than 4 months to run through club championship with only All Ireland club semi finals and finals plus college in January

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 02/04/2025 18:26:47    2600180

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15266 - 02/04/2025 19:38:50    2600193

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4446 - 02/04/2025 20:42:28    2600208

You imagine the National league being played over March, April, May and even into the start of June.

You think of how much better that competition would be in.

You'd have that last 16 seeded based on the league and championship.

Provincial champions avoid one another before the semifinals, top 4 league teams can't meet before the semifinals. Top 2 in the league can't meet before the final.

Actually have a season where you don't just play a lot of games and then practically start all over again.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4446 - 02/04/2025 20:53:54    2600210

Michael Murphy was making the point on GAAGO last year that the provincial championships seem a drop in standard after the league. Hard to argue with that. He was singing from the same hymn sheet as Eamonn Fitzmaurice calling for provincial championships before league. As I've said though that will be harsh on the likes of the Errigal Ciaran contingent who missed the early rounds of the league.
At least Ulster has provincial finals fitting of the occasion. Connacht has competitive too unless the better 3 are on the same side of the draw. The lopsided Munster draws are presenting low key finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8643 - 02/04/2025 22:19:50    2600230

Yes, there's a lot to be said for a season that "progresses", initially from lower impact league games, to more meaningful league/Prov ties, with playoff berths on the line later leading into a short AIC KO.

In my AILC (combined All-Ireland League Championship), I used groups to reduce two-tier 15-match round robin leagues to a more manageable 10- or 12-match season ('doubling up' own-tier Prov KO ties in the 10 or 12).
Spreading each 'Prov last 4' across groups helps in achieving the 'doubling up' of ALL 'own-tier' Prov ties as league ties (hence, to determine each 'last 4', the early Prov start in the Calendar below, before SFs & Finals are deferred).

For 12 games, 4 groups of 4 drawn (teams avoid own group, play other 12).
For 10 games, groups of 6,5,5 drawn (6 v both 5s;
each 5 plays own round robin group).

Short three-tier AIC for:
T1 Sam AFL-style (league top 8);
T2 Shield KO (league 9-20); and
T3 Plate KO (league 21-28, 29-32 eliminated).

My suggested AILC calendar:

CALENDAR
Week Activity
-2 (mid Jan) Start of '2-3 game' Pre-Season
0 (end of Jan) End of Pre-Season Warm-Up

1 (start of Feb) Prov SFC Prelim Rd
2 Prov SFC QFs

2 (after QFs) AILC Draw (2 tiers of 4x4 or 6,5,5)
2 (after Draw) Prelim/QF 'intra-tier' ties to tables
3 Bye Week

4 (end of Feb) First Full Regular Season Rd
12 (end of Apr) Rd includes all 8 Prov SFs
16 & 17 (end of May) Rds include 4 Prov Finals
20 Last Regular Season Rd
21 (end of June) Bye Week

22 AIC PSFs/PQFs, AI Shield PQFs & AI Plate QFs
23 AIC QFs & AI Shield QFs
24 AI Plate SFs
25 (end of July) AIC SFs & AI Shield SFs
26 AI Plate Final
27 (2nd week of Aug) AIC Final & AI Shield Final

Note - With each team scheduled to play 12 (or 10) 'staggered' regular season games in Weeks 1-20 and '0 to 4' AI/post-season games in Weeks 22-27, their remaining 'inactive weeks' are deemed sufficient for rest time.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3168 - 02/04/2025 23:14:29    2600244