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Replying To legendzxix: "The Dublin motion is provoking a needed discussion.
I know hurling is just about to go to divisions of 7 but returning to divisions of 6, players could be made available for 4 rounds of county hurling leagues on alternate weekends with the Allianz National League.
In football as mentioned above, county football leagues can be alternate weekends with the provincial championships.
Enforcing it is the conundrum. County boards could have to prove players are available on the 4 designated county league weekends. A match day squad might have to contain 15 players that played at least 3 county league games, if that can at all be workable and practical." That's not going to work here in Wexford. Nearly all our Senior Hurling panel play club football, and nearly all our Senior Football panel play club hurling. Different clubs would have some of their best players available when others don't, and vice versa.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14127 - 12/12/2024 19:04:24
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Never agreed with the current format for the McCarthy cup. Waterford were probably in the top four teams this year and not playing in the All-Ireland series. Beaten by a point by the champions and beat the other finalist. Not because it was Waterford but could happen to anyone. On the other hand teams that were way down the ranking played for the McCarthy. This is just not right.
I have said it before scrap the league that everyone says has no reflection on the championship. Run the championship open draw with a play off system. Relegation and promotion. The top teams will be positioned in the correct order for play offs. If the provinces want a championship go for it. The top two teams in the championship play a provincial final. This will free up calendar time for club games not piled on top of each other. Also the so called lesser teams will get to play more than one game against top opposition and a better chance to climb the ladder. Just because we like the drama of this qualifier system does not make it right.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2900 - 12/12/2024 19:39:44
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Replying To Viking66: "That's not going to work here in Wexford. Nearly all our Senior Hurling panel play club football, and nearly all our Senior Football panel play club hurling. Different clubs would have some of their best players available when others don't, and vice versa." Sounds like where there has to be compromise. County leagues currently go ahead without county players. The compromise would have to be football county players available for football county league and hurling county players available for hurling county league.
The Allianz hurling league shouldn't be preventing players being available for clubs. The football provincial championships shouldn't be preventing players from being available for clubs either. Those are the stand out areas for compromise within the current split season.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 12/12/2024 20:32:33
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Replying To Canuck: "Never agreed with the current format for the McCarthy cup. Waterford were probably in the top four teams this year and not playing in the All-Ireland series. Beaten by a point by the champions and beat the other finalist. Not because it was Waterford but could happen to anyone. On the other hand teams that were way down the ranking played for the McCarthy. This is just not right.
I have said it before scrap the league that everyone says has no reflection on the championship. Run the championship open draw with a play off system. Relegation and promotion. The top teams will be positioned in the correct order for play offs. If the provinces want a championship go for it. The top two teams in the championship play a provincial final. This will free up calendar time for club games not piled on top of each other. Also the so called lesser teams will get to play more than one game against top opposition and a better chance to climb the ladder. Just because we like the drama of this qualifier system does not make it right." Not sure the basis for thinking you were top 4 tbh. Cork were slow out of the blocks and gradually got better, you probably did the opposite. You were robbed against Clare alright. But could only draw against Tipp who got hammered by everyone else.
And the only Leinster opposition you beat this year were Offaly who werent even in the Leinster Championship this year, so not sure how you would know you'd of beaten any of the Leinster teams, being as you didn't play them in a Championship game.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14127 - 12/12/2024 22:47:11
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Replying To Canuck: "Never agreed with the current format for the McCarthy cup. Waterford were probably in the top four teams this year and not playing in the All-Ireland series. Beaten by a point by the champions and beat the other finalist. Not because it was Waterford but could happen to anyone. On the other hand teams that were way down the ranking played for the McCarthy. This is just not right.
I have said it before scrap the league that everyone says has no reflection on the championship. Run the championship open draw with a play off system. Relegation and promotion. The top teams will be positioned in the correct order for play offs. If the provinces want a championship go for it. The top two teams in the championship play a provincial final. This will free up calendar time for club games not piled on top of each other. Also the so called lesser teams will get to play more than one game against top opposition and a better chance to climb the ladder. Just because we like the drama of this qualifier system does not make it right." Not sure the basis for thinking you were top 4 tbh. Cork were slow out of the blocks and gradually got better, you probably did the opposite. You were robbed against Clare alright. But could only draw against Tipp who got hammered by everyone else.
And the only Leinster opposition you beat this year were Offaly who werent even in the Leinster Championship this year, so not sure how you would know you'd of beaten any of the Leinster teams, being as you didn't play them in a Championship game.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14127 - 12/12/2024 22:47:19
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Replying To legendzxix: "Sounds like where there has to be compromise. County leagues currently go ahead without county players. The compromise would have to be football county players available for football county league and hurling county players available for hurling county league.
The Allianz hurling league shouldn't be preventing players being available for clubs. The football provincial championships shouldn't be preventing players from being available for clubs either. Those are the stand out areas for compromise within the current split season." That's all grand in theory, but no intercounty management team would want to to be without players during the county season.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14127 - 12/12/2024 22:48:36
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Replying To Viking66: "That's all grand in theory, but no intercounty management team would want to to be without players during the county season." They won't. The Dublin motion seems aware of that as well.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 13/12/2024 12:42:42
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Replying To legendzxix: "The following is possible:
FEBRUARY AND MARCH: Provincial and All Ireland club championships. Allianz National Leagues.
APRIL AND MAY: Club only.
JUNE TO MID SEPTEMBER: Provincial and All Ireland inter county championships. County club leagues.
MID SEPTEMBER TO NOVEMBER: Club only.
Rugby has defined blocks of club rugby, autumn internationals, club rugby, spring internationals (Six Nations) and then more club rugby.
As mentioned in the original post - provincial and All Ireland club championships can run in parallel to the Allianz leagues. County leagues then can run in parallel with inter county championships as they tend to do currently.
April and May can allow for a run of club games in good weather. It actually has the knock on affect of allowing for September All Ireland finals." Yes, GAA can learn a lot from rugby - multiple windows, respect for officials, rule innovation etc.
I like the 'Club 4' motion - but perhaps the inter-county footprint needs to be reduced.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 13/12/2024 15:12:21
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Replying To Viking66: "Not sure the basis for thinking you were top 4 tbh. Cork were slow out of the blocks and gradually got better, you probably did the opposite. You were robbed against Clare alright. But could only draw against Tipp who got hammered by everyone else.
And the only Leinster opposition you beat this year were Offaly who werent even in the Leinster Championship this year, so not sure how you would know you'd of beaten any of the Leinster teams, being as you didn't play them in a Championship game." Okay let's put us further down the line. Definitely in the top 6 or 7. Were there teams took part in the All-Ireland series who were not close to us and I' am not degrading them now or ever did. This is not the best way to contest the national championship. This is irrespective of how U.S. or any team would do in it.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2900 - 13/12/2024 15:20:48
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Replying To Viking66: "Not sure the basis for thinking you were top 4 tbh. Cork were slow out of the blocks and gradually got better, you probably did the opposite. You were robbed against Clare alright. But could only draw against Tipp who got hammered by everyone else.
And the only Leinster opposition you beat this year were Offaly who werent even in the Leinster Championship this year, so not sure how you would know you'd of beaten any of the Leinster teams, being as you didn't play them in a Championship game." Precisely. "Didn't play them " If the All Ireland championship was played in an open draw league and play off system that would correct that. I always give credit where credit is due including Wexford. The only teams in Leinster/Conaught/Ulster province that may have beaten Waterford this year were Kilkenny and Galway and possible Wexford. Still put us at 6 or 7 or higher. I watched back the Munster games lately and the only team in Munster that overwhelmed us was Limerick. That was our standard this year. Next year might be different and the days we are not good enough I will call it out without complaining. However the first step in establishing a national championship is having all the teams who should be taking part in it. That championship does not start until the two province championship is over and that means of qualification ends up with inequity of who takes part in the All -Ireland series.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2900 - 13/12/2024 15:55:45
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The Dublin motion has the right intention anyway. County players are not available for fair amount of club games. Something has to change.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 13/12/2024 16:44:45
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Replying To Canuck: "Precisely. "Didn't play them " If the All Ireland championship was played in an open draw league and play off system that would correct that. I always give credit where credit is due including Wexford. The only teams in Leinster/Conaught/Ulster province that may have beaten Waterford this year were Kilkenny and Galway and possible Wexford. Still put us at 6 or 7 or higher. I watched back the Munster games lately and the only team in Munster that overwhelmed us was Limerick. That was our standard this year. Next year might be different and the days we are not good enough I will call it out without complaining. However the first step in establishing a national championship is having all the teams who should be taking part in it. That championship does not start until the two province championship is over and that means of qualification ends up with inequity of who takes part in the All -Ireland series." Yes, but it's always been that way.
Up to 1997, just one team from Munster and one team from Leinster ever went into the All-Ireland series. Didn't matter if four Munster teams were better than any team in Leinster, or vice versa.
Then the first iteration of the back door was introduced, and two from each province went into the All-Ireland series. Again, didn't matter if third or even fourth or fifth best in Munster was better than second in Leinster.
And basically, the same sort of thing has continued throughout all versions of the championship since then, up to and including the current one.
If you're calling for some sort of "national championship", then it has to be recognised that it's actually Munster who have always been the ones most opposed to even any hint of a suggestion that the provincial system be scrapped.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 13/12/2024 17:16:29
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Yes, but it's always been that way.
Up to 1997, just one team from Munster and one team from Leinster ever went into the All-Ireland series. Didn't matter if four Munster teams were better than any team in Leinster, or vice versa.
Then the first iteration of the back door was introduced, and two from each province went into the All-Ireland series. Again, didn't matter if third or even fourth or fifth best in Munster was better than second in Leinster.
And basically, the same sort of thing has continued throughout all versions of the championship since then, up to and including the current one.
If you're calling for some sort of "national championship", then it has to be recognised that it's actually Munster who have always been the ones most opposed to even any hint of a suggestion that the provincial system be scrapped." Agree it is Munster opposed. Yes the championship used to be a knock out. Let's go back to that then and get on with the club game. At least the qualifiers brought inter provincial competition for the All-Ireland series and a better analysis of team standings. If you could not come through the qualifiers it was probably a better assessment of where you are. It is what it is but no one can deny that all the best teams enter the All Ireland series once provincial championship is completed. There may not be a perfect system but this one is seriously flawed.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2900 - 13/12/2024 19:17:58
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "It's absolute nonsense that county players are stopped from playing with their clubs even though in many cases the player(s) are getting little or no playing time with their county… All because well paid managers are calling the shots and stopping players from representing their clubs…. Hopefully this revenue trawl will bring many of these County Boards to their senses as regards the ridiculous amount of money they are wasting every year on county team preparations…. bonkers stuff" One rule that would knock the whole f@"king nonsense of the modern gaa on the head would be to rule that a manager/selector etc of a club at adult level needs to be a member or said club for 5 years prior.
Better the GAA kill off this mercenary manager stuff before the revenue does
Jjoniel79 (Monaghan) - Posts: 181 - 13/12/2024 20:51:00
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Replying To Canuck: "Okay let's put us further down the line. Definitely in the top 6 or 7. Were there teams took part in the All-Ireland series who were not close to us and I' am not degrading them now or ever did. This is not the best way to contest the national championship. This is irrespective of how U.S. or any team would do in it." That's fair enough
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14127 - 13/12/2024 21:41:17
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For the Dublin motion to have a possibility of working within the current season, the Allianz leagues would have to be limited to 6 rounds. This way the Allianz National leagues and county leagues can be played on alternating weekends.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 14/12/2024 07:38:36
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1 provincial intercounty: 2 county league
2 provincial intercounty: 1 county league
3 All Ireland/Tailteann group matches: 1 league
The Dublin motion could be facilitated by something like the above. Tipperary matchday players knocked out after a Munster quarter final should be available for 2 county league rounds. Clare who received a bye to the Munster semi-finals and made the final should have matchday players available for 1 county league round, presumably before the semi-final.
Any county knocked out after the current group stage format should have matchday players available for at least 1 county league round.
Players not in the matchday 26, barring injury, should be available for more county league rounds.
Tracking it all of course is another matter.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 18/12/2024 18:47:55
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The problem with the Clontarf motion, as with all such proposals, is that it seeks to impose the same structure on 32 different counties that probably have 32 different League & Championship structures of their own, and 32 different degrees of variation in crossover between football and hurling.
For instance, in Dublin this year, clubs got 15 matches in Division 1 of their League (where most inter-county players would be lining out). Asking county players to play just four of them doesn't seem that much.
However, in Wexford, clubs only get five matches in the League unless they end up in a play-off. Asking them to play four there is a different story.
And for club championship, it only allows a four-week block in April (where they suggest two championship matches be played), followed by a six-week block later in the year. That might work in Dublin, but wouldn't work here, where just about all club players play both football and hurling, and where hurling takes nine rounds of matches, and football takes eight.
An easier way to ensure that Dublin inter-county footballers would line out with their clubs more often would simply be for Dublin to change their own League & Championship structures, but instead, they try to impose something on the whole country.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 19/12/2024 09:35:06
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Replying To Canuck: "Precisely. "Didn't play them " If the All Ireland championship was played in an open draw league and play off system that would correct that. I always give credit where credit is due including Wexford. The only teams in Leinster/Conaught/Ulster province that may have beaten Waterford this year were Kilkenny and Galway and possible Wexford. Still put us at 6 or 7 or higher. I watched back the Munster games lately and the only team in Munster that overwhelmed us was Limerick. That was our standard this year. Next year might be different and the days we are not good enough I will call it out without complaining. However the first step in establishing a national championship is having all the teams who should be taking part in it. That championship does not start until the two province championship is over and that means of qualification ends up with inequity of who takes part in the All -Ireland series." Be careful what you wish for. Lets say there's a national championship for hurling with 10 teams. There would need to be relegation for the bottom team. As Offaly found out - you can go from beaten Leinster finalist in 2004 to 3rd tier relegation in 2019.
Perhaps the change you're asking for is a relegation playoff between the bottom team in Leinster and the bottom team in Munster. Yes, this year Tipperary would have probably beaten Carlow well; but next year or the year after a relegation playoff between Antrim or Offaly against Waterford - would you be 100% sure of winning that?
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 19/12/2024 10:54:39
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Replying To Pikeman96: "The problem with the Clontarf motion, as with all such proposals, is that it seeks to impose the same structure on 32 different counties that probably have 32 different League & Championship structures of their own, and 32 different degrees of variation in crossover between football and hurling.
For instance, in Dublin this year, clubs got 15 matches in Division 1 of their League (where most inter-county players would be lining out). Asking county players to play just four of them doesn't seem that much.
However, in Wexford, clubs only get five matches in the League unless they end up in a play-off. Asking them to play four there is a different story.
And for club championship, it only allows a four-week block in April (where they suggest two championship matches be played), followed by a six-week block later in the year. That might work in Dublin, but wouldn't work here, where just about all club players play both football and hurling, and where hurling takes nine rounds of matches, and football takes eight.
An easier way to ensure that Dublin inter-county footballers would line out with their clubs more often would simply be for Dublin to change their own League & Championship structures, but instead, they try to impose something on the whole country." You do raise fair points. The GAA could issue an advisory that counties knocked out of provincial championships make their players available. It should be a matter for each county to apply their own rules though.
Some counties complain about the gap between provincial knockout and their next game. It should be pushed back on them to release their players for county league.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 19/12/2024 11:51:34
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