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What Is The Best Of Jim Gavins Ideas

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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "Agree 100%, Championship should be knockout, we have group stages in our club Championships here in Donegal, nobody pays any interest until it gets to the knockout stage. Th whole thing is mess anyway but no matter how bad it gets it's still way better than tan ball." County championships get interesting at the knockout stage. The challenging part is that group games do allow teams an opportunity to grow into a tournament. Some county championships are taking the biscuit with all clubs advancing from the group stage! legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 04/11/2024 17:56:05 2578381 Link
Replying To Ryanteam: "Group games are ridiculous. A lot of them are "dead rubber contests" and have very little intensity. Bring back straight knockout contests, and generate some excitement. Also, bring back all Ireland finals to September, and maybe GAA should prioritize games, rather than generating revenue from rock band Oasis!" I think a group stage is absolutely the right way to go for our championships. We can't go back to half the teams having 1 championship game a year. A group stage feeding into a knockout stage is a lot more logical competition than the old back door system. The issue people bring up is the specifics of how the GAA operate the group stages in that a lot of people think too many teams qualify from the group stage meaning you have a lot of dead rubber games. In truth I might agree with this only my own county is quiet weak at the moment meaning the current setup of a lot of teams qualifying means we have more of a chance of getting through it in next few years. The current group stages gives teams who are trying to build a chance to improve although it also means for TV audience/ general fans and the more competitive teams it takes away from the competition a bit. bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 04/11/2024 19:04:28 2578395 Link
Replying To bdbuddah: "I think a group stage is absolutely the right way to go for our championships. We can't go back to half the teams having 1 championship game a year. A group stage feeding into a knockout stage is a lot more logical competition than the old back door system. The issue people bring up is the specifics of how the GAA operate the group stages in that a lot of people think too many teams qualify from the group stage meaning you have a lot of dead rubber games. In truth I might agree with this only my own county is quiet weak at the moment meaning the current setup of a lot of teams qualifying means we have more of a chance of getting through it in next few years. The current group stages gives teams who are trying to build a chance to improve although it also means for TV audience/ general fans and the more competitive teams it takes away from the competition a bit." You have a group stage (the league) feeding into another group stage with some guest teams (provincial finalists). Hence the group stage is a very slow burn. We need to decouple the league to championship link and introduce promotion and relegation between the Sam Maguire and Tailteann Cup. You'd then have something to keep everyone interested and all teams fully committed. How about something like this for the Sam Maguire: 12 core teams each year (take the first 3 in each group this year for year one) 4 "guest" teams (provincial winner / runner up or next best in the league) After year one the 12th placed core team is relegated with the Taitleann winner replacing them The higher placed of the 11th placed core team or the top "guest" team stays in Sam - hold a playoff if necessary Basically you get promoted if you're the best second tier team or a provincial finalist who's proven themselves in the top 12 in the championship. Introducing jeopardy into the championship would fix the format. At the moment there is more at risk in Division 2 of the league than in the championship and you're better off winning Division 3 than winning the Tailteann cup. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 352 - 05/11/2024 11:28:34 2578442 Link
Replying To brianb: "You have a group stage (the league) feeding into another group stage with some guest teams (provincial finalists). Hence the group stage is a very slow burn. We need to decouple the league to championship link and introduce promotion and relegation between the Sam Maguire and Tailteann Cup. You'd then have something to keep everyone interested and all teams fully committed. How about something like this for the Sam Maguire: 12 core teams each year (take the first 3 in each group this year for year one) 4 "guest" teams (provincial winner / runner up or next best in the league) After year one the 12th placed core team is relegated with the Taitleann winner replacing them The higher placed of the 11th placed core team or the top "guest" team stays in Sam - hold a playoff if necessary Basically you get promoted if you're the best second tier team or a provincial finalist who's proven themselves in the top 12 in the championship. Introducing jeopardy into the championship would fix the format. At the moment there is more at risk in Division 2 of the league than in the championship and you're better off winning Division 3 than winning the Tailteann cup." 3 graded AI SF Championships is the way to go, with promotion and relegation. Inter County Hurling, Camogie, Ladies football can have 3 grades with Groups and Promotion/relegation. Club Hurling, Camogie, Ladies Football AND CLUB FOOTBALL can have graded Championships with majority having Groups. But for some reason that cant appky to inter Co football. Scratches head wondering why????? Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 05/11/2024 14:47:44 2578469 Link
Replying To Seanfanbocht: "3 graded AI SF Championships is the way to go, with promotion and relegation. Inter County Hurling, Camogie, Ladies football can have 3 grades with Groups and Promotion/relegation. Club Hurling, Camogie, Ladies Football AND CLUB FOOTBALL can have graded Championships with majority having Groups. But for some reason that cant appky to inter Co football. Scratches head wondering why?????" The "why" is the provincial championship - and if you win the provincial championship you should be in the Sam Maguire championship. The provincial link could be dropped completely but I'm not sure that would help the game - having said that the current set-up doesn't help the game either. I'd like to see a tiered championship structure with championship based promotion and relegation - while keeping some link to the tradition built up in the provincial structure. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 352 - 05/11/2024 15:15:38 2578477 Link
Replying To bdbuddah: "I think a group stage is absolutely the right way to go for our championships. We can't go back to half the teams having 1 championship game a year. A group stage feeding into a knockout stage is a lot more logical competition than the old back door system. The issue people bring up is the specifics of how the GAA operate the group stages in that a lot of people think too many teams qualify from the group stage meaning you have a lot of dead rubber games. In truth I might agree with this only my own county is quiet weak at the moment meaning the current setup of a lot of teams qualifying means we have more of a chance of getting through it in next few years. The current group stages gives teams who are trying to build a chance to improve although it also means for TV audience/ general fans and the more competitive teams it takes away from the competition a bit." My preferred idea is along those lines - league season, encompassing Prov KO, leading to a short concluding AIC KO phase (3 cups at each team's level): - Two league tiers of 16 - Play 12 of 15 (short round robin) - Play '3 of 4' groups of 4 drawn (avoid own group) - 12 includes 'own tier' Prov ties (doubling up) - 'Prov Tier 1v2 ties' played separately (not in 12) - Tier 1 top 8 to AIC Sam KO (top 4 has AFL backdoor); T1 bottom 8 +Tier 2 top 4 to AI Shield (T1 3rd 4 byes); and Tier 2 middle 8 to AI Plate - Shield QF 8 to next year Tier 1 (so 0-4 promoted) - 28 of 32 advance to contest 'own level' AI title - Prov Champs to Sam, Shield or Plate based on T1/T2 - 12 is like combining current league 7 + group 3 (10), + 2 more (shorter than getting to Uls/Lein Final). What's wrong with it? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 05/11/2024 16:09:44 2578485 Link
I don't Jim has been out to fix the championship format! At the end of the day there has to be jeopardy and bite in championship. Especially for the All-Ireland championships that are under microscope. The Galway hurling championship and other county championships are content with groups of 4, with 2nd and 3rd into preliminary quarter-finals. It doesn't work at All-Ireland intercounty championship level though. County championships have the added edge of relegation. The championship format remains unchanged for next year. I suppose more games for the new rules before the heat of knockout. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 05/11/2024 16:46:00 2578490 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "If the arc is a success, the value of a goal can be revised. If the arc is a flop, the two pointer can be dropped. The powers that be tend not to make drastic changes. The two pointer is a one step change." If they both flop, we'll just watch hurling :) omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 05/11/2024 23:36:03 2578527 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "I don't Jim has been out to fix the championship format! At the end of the day there has to be jeopardy and bite in championship. Especially for the All-Ireland championships that are under microscope. The Galway hurling championship and other county championships are content with groups of 4, with 2nd and 3rd into preliminary quarter-finals. It doesn't work at All-Ireland intercounty championship level though. County championships have the added edge of relegation. The championship format remains unchanged for next year. I suppose more games for the new rules before the heat of knockout." Maybe decoupling league and having promotion/ relegation from current AIC 4x4 would help, with 3 advancing? And yes - Jim wasn't tasked with format "enhancements" - but maybe he could have helped there too - if you don't want mine :) NB - I only use 'groups of 4' to reduce 15 games to 12. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 05/11/2024 23:57:07 2578528 Link
Replying To brianb: "You have a group stage (the league) feeding into another group stage with some guest teams (provincial finalists). Hence the group stage is a very slow burn. We need to decouple the league to championship link and introduce promotion and relegation between the Sam Maguire and Tailteann Cup. You'd then have something to keep everyone interested and all teams fully committed. How about something like this for the Sam Maguire: 12 core teams each year (take the first 3 in each group this year for year one) 4 "guest" teams (provincial winner / runner up or next best in the league) After year one the 12th placed core team is relegated with the Taitleann winner replacing them The higher placed of the 11th placed core team or the top "guest" team stays in Sam - hold a playoff if necessary Basically you get promoted if you're the best second tier team or a provincial finalist who's proven themselves in the top 12 in the championship. Introducing jeopardy into the championship would fix the format. At the moment there is more at risk in Division 2 of the league than in the championship and you're better off winning Division 3 than winning the Tailteann cup." I agree the current structure is too convoluted with the league feeding into a group stage where you qualify for a knock-out. Personally I think there is no need or reason for separate league and championship competitions at inter county level, combine them into one competition (basically going forward the All Ireland Championship would be run in a similar way to the National league which is a group stage (of 7 games) followed by a knock-out stage). Also run the Provincials as stand alone competitions. I think this would be much more logical than the convoluted structure we have now of separate league and championship competitions which are linked to each other and far more logical than the old back door half knockout championship we used to have. bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 06/11/2024 07:20:58 2578532 Link
Replying To bdbuddah: "I agree the current structure is too convoluted with the league feeding into a group stage where you qualify for a knock-out. Personally I think there is no need or reason for separate league and championship competitions at inter county level, combine them into one competition (basically going forward the All Ireland Championship would be run in a similar way to the National league which is a group stage (of 7 games) followed by a knock-out stage). Also run the Provincials as stand alone competitions. I think this would be much more logical than the convoluted structure we have now of separate league and championship competitions which are linked to each other and far more logical than the old back door half knockout championship we used to have." . . . not a bad idea - but the clamour would then then be to get the provincial champions to play off as part of a new stand alone All Ireland completion. In 30 odd years of progress we'd have basically swapped the league and the championship in terms of importance. Don't get me wrong - that would not be a bad thing. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 352 - 06/11/2024 11:20:44 2578558 Link
Back to the FRC..... Will their proposals all pass? I'd be opposed to the 2 pointer for 2 reasons.. 1 - Goal back to 3 points makes 2 pointer worth too much. 2 - Diarmuid Murtagh scores a point from near the corner flag with 2 backs harassing him - only gets 1 for it. Rory Beggan kicks a 40 metre free from straight in front of goal with a wind behind him - gets 2 for an easier score. Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 06/11/2024 11:49:46 2578565 Link
Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Back to the FRC..... Will their proposals all pass? I'd be opposed to the 2 pointer for 2 reasons.. 1 - Goal back to 3 points makes 2 pointer worth too much. 2 - Diarmuid Murtagh scores a point from near the corner flag with 2 backs harassing him - only gets 1 for it. Rory Beggan kicks a 40 metre free from straight in front of goal with a wind behind him - gets 2 for an easier score." Back to the FRC is right. I'm not against the two pointer. I think the reward is needed for the riskier shot and to encourage defences to push out. The value of a goal is debatable. If the two pointer adds to attacking play, solving the value of a goal is a different problem. While I enjoy good fielding, I'm not entirely in favour of the kickout having to go beyond the arc. With the new goalkeeper passing rules, kickouts beyond the 13m arc should be far enough. Forward can press the kickout. Defenders cannot pass back to the keeper. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 06/11/2024 13:20:46 2578578 Link
Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Back to the FRC..... Will their proposals all pass? I'd be opposed to the 2 pointer for 2 reasons.. 1 - Goal back to 3 points makes 2 pointer worth too much. 2 - Diarmuid Murtagh scores a point from near the corner flag with 2 backs harassing him - only gets 1 for it. Rory Beggan kicks a 40 metre free from straight in front of goal with a wind behind him - gets 2 for an easier score." I'd expect all will pass - and that both your points will become evident flaws very quickly. But having said that - a team simply cannot give away a free 40-60 meters from goal as they will be severely punished for it; that should be a good thing. Ultimately it would be better to give up a 50/50 goal chance than foul 41 meters from goal. The other issue I have is the goalkeeper position - effectively it would be best to pick your best play-maker/long-range point scorer as the goal keeper and your best shot stopper as the full back. Granted your goalkeeper will need to head back to take the goal kicks but the keep ball with an extra man problem has just moved up the field. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 352 - 06/11/2024 14:25:44 2578590 Link
Replying To brianb: "I'd expect all will pass - and that both your points will become evident flaws very quickly. But having said that - a team simply cannot give away a free 40-60 meters from goal as they will be severely punished for it; that should be a good thing. Ultimately it would be better to give up a 50/50 goal chance than foul 41 meters from goal. The other issue I have is the goalkeeper position - effectively it would be best to pick your best play-maker/long-range point scorer as the goal keeper and your best shot stopper as the full back. Granted your goalkeeper will need to head back to take the goal kicks but the keep ball with an extra man problem has just moved up the field." Will teams halt their attacks at the arc and fiddle about looking for a free? Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 06/11/2024 15:36:06 2578611 Link
Replying To brianb: "I'd expect all will pass - and that both your points will become evident flaws very quickly. But having said that - a team simply cannot give away a free 40-60 meters from goal as they will be severely punished for it; that should be a good thing. Ultimately it would be better to give up a 50/50 goal chance than foul 41 meters from goal. The other issue I have is the goalkeeper position - effectively it would be best to pick your best play-maker/long-range point scorer as the goal keeper and your best shot stopper as the full back. Granted your goalkeeper will need to head back to take the goal kicks but the keep ball with an extra man problem has just moved up the field." 2.7 (a) "If the goalkeeper is not taking the kick-out, the goalkeeper shall stay in the small rectangle." The goalkeeper doesn't have to take the kickout but granted he will have to be back inside the small rectangle. (i) The goalkeeper may play the ball on the ground with his hand(s) inside his own small rectangle. From your scenario, this rule seems the one reason for a proper goalkeeper to mind the house. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 06/11/2024 16:33:38 2578625 Link
Replying To brianb: ". . . not a bad idea - but the clamour would then then be to get the provincial champions to play off as part of a new stand alone All Ireland completion. In 30 odd years of progress we'd have basically swapped the league and the championship in terms of importance. Don't get me wrong - that would not be a bad thing." I think at this stage if GAA said they were running provincial championships as stand alone competitions to All Ireland championships I don't think anybody would ask for a play off between provincial champions. bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 06/11/2024 17:28:18 2578639 Link
Replying To bdbuddah: "I think at this stage if GAA said they were running provincial championships as stand alone competitions to All Ireland championships I don't think anybody would ask for a play off between provincial champions." The open draw has damaged provincial championships. The hurling round robins have the best two in the final. Football should use a ranking of teams based on All-Ireland first and league secondly 1 to 32. All provinces could use that 1 to 32 for balanced draws. Eamon Fitzmaurice and Michael Murphy are in favour of provincial championships before the league. Provincial championships after the league currently just like a drop in standard and intensity. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 06/11/2024 19:05:38 2578663 Link
I don't think you can say you get 2 points for a 'point' from outside the arc but a free from outside the arc is only worth 1 point, that could possibly incentivise defenders to foul before a forward gets a chance to kick a 2 pointer. 1 point for a 45 though is a no brainer, otherwise players may at times be better off not trying to block a ball down to try to save a 1 pointer from inside the arc for fear of giving an opportunity for a 2 point from subsequent 45. bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 06/11/2024 19:35:40 2578668 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Back to the FRC is right. I'm not against the two pointer. I think the reward is needed for the riskier shot and to encourage defences to push out. The value of a goal is debatable. If the two pointer adds to attacking play, solving the value of a goal is a different problem. While I enjoy good fielding, I'm not entirely in favour of the kickout having to go beyond the arc. With the new goalkeeper passing rules, kickouts beyond the 13m arc should be far enough. Forward can press the kickout. Defenders cannot pass back to the keeper." Many want to see long kick passes and contested balls. Why not have it 'forced by rule'? Say, the defence MUST kick pass to beyond its own 65 from behind its 45 - a better 20-metre kick than the proposed one at kick out (which could go short then). As for the scoring scale, retention of 3/1 could be: - 'Over the bar' (OTB) from the arc, => 40m = 1 pt - OTB from < 40m, ONLY after a kick to inside the 20 from outside the 45, a '45-20' (ball can bounce, so not necessarily an Advance Mark) = 1 pt - OTB from < 40m, WITHOUT prior 45-20 = 0 pts (wide) - GOAL from any distance, with or without a 45-20 = 3 pts (no change). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 06/11/2024 22:26:25 2578684 Link