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3 up concerns me.
Will it not change the game to be more like soccer - well set-up teams settling for counter attacking? With 3 speedsters than can win their own ball on the half-way line the attacking team will likely have 4 back plus the goalie (unless it's Niall Morgan).
The attacking team will then have 10 v 12 defenders. The defence will be happy to defend deep until they get the inevitable turnover, quickly get it forward to one of the 3 attackers who will go on a run with empty spaces in front of them for a point or a goal. Then they will let the opposition have the kickout - rinse and repeat.
A massive emphasis on fitness.
The 'tactical' county managers will have a field day and it will soon seep into club football.
Or am I missing something?
Newman21 (Donegal) - Posts: 42 - 21/10/2024 08:22:00
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Replying To omahant: "A 4-pointer however, is only worth 2 red flags.
I wonder if streamlining the scoring back to '3 and 1' would be better?:
Goal - 3 pts
Over from at/outside the 40m arc - 1 pt
Over from inside the arc, ONLY after 45-20 kick - 1 pt
Over from inside the arc, without 45-20 - 0 pts (wide).
I'm underwhelmed with the retained long series of hand passing - perhaps only a 'total of two' should be allowed in any sequence of unbroken possession, after the 2nd, a 'forward' kick pass should be required." So what ? Just a big hoof it kick down the field like the 80s?
veterngaa (Monaghan) - Posts: 641 - 21/10/2024 08:45:00
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Replying To Newman21: "3 up concerns me.
Will it not change the game to be more like soccer - well set-up teams settling for counter attacking? With 3 speedsters than can win their own ball on the half-way line the attacking team will likely have 4 back plus the goalie (unless it's Niall Morgan).
The attacking team will then have 10 v 12 defenders. The defence will be happy to defend deep until they get the inevitable turnover, quickly get it forward to one of the 3 attackers who will go on a run with empty spaces in front of them for a point or a goal. Then they will let the opposition have the kickout - rinse and repeat.
A massive emphasis on fitness.
The 'tactical' county managers will have a field day and it will soon seep into club football.
Or am I missing something?" I feel you're right - the big test would be when a defensively mined tactical team bring their interpretation to it.
With the keeper adding an extra man I think its easier to play keep ball. Teams will do this as with 3 back the risk of being caught forward is less. I'd expect to see a lot of over and back between the 70 and the 45.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 338 - 21/10/2024 10:35:59
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Replying To veterngaa: "So what ? Just a big hoof it kick down the field like the 80s?" Or maybe the player with can look up the field pick out a place where space on the field exists kick the ball to where a teammate has used his initiative and ran into that space (there should be more space available now) rather than what happens a lot of the time now where often he gets the ball unmarked at jogging pace from a team mate 5 meters away and passes it on to another unmarked player 5 meters away also running at jogging pace.
The modern style of football in some ways is a dumbed down version of football.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1394 - 21/10/2024 11:50:07
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All in all I think the rules make the game a lot better.
Rules to keep
- 3 players up at all times.
- Solo and go.
- Advanced mark.
- No back pass to goalkeeper.
Rules to tweak
- 2 pointer should be from open play only.
- Bring 4 point for goal back to 3.
Rules to abandon
- The kick out may be difficult for club team playing against a wind. Teams will set up around the arc to defend.
Rules to add
- 5 subs permitted in each half
hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 417 - 21/10/2024 12:00:35
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Replying To hopballref: "All in all I think the rules make the game a lot better.
Rules to keep
- 3 players up at all times.
- Solo and go.
- Advanced mark.
- No back pass to goalkeeper.
Rules to tweak
- 2 pointer should be from open play only.
- Bring 4 point for goal back to 3.
Rules to abandon
- The kick out may be difficult for club team playing against a wind. Teams will set up around the arc to defend.
Rules to add
- 5 subs permitted in each half" Good points there. 2pts for kicking 45s shouldn't be brought in anyway. All converted frees and 45s should be 1pointers only, I agree.
I think the 4pt goal is a good idea though. So many games have no goals nowadays, but then again the new rules should initiate more goals anyway, so perhaps 3pts for them is about right.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3857 - 21/10/2024 12:48:36
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There are many positives. We want a more open game for sure. Do we need all the changes? I don't think so but the committee are adamant they all compliment each other. I am not so sure. One thing is for certain. The gap between weaker teams and stronger ones is going to get a lot bigger, especially at club level.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8099 - 21/10/2024 13:03:45
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Replying To hopballref: "All in all I think the rules make the game a lot better.
Rules to keep
- 3 players up at all times.
- Solo and go.
- Advanced mark.
- No back pass to goalkeeper.
Rules to tweak
- 2 pointer should be from open play only.
- Bring 4 point for goal back to 3.
Rules to abandon
- The kick out may be difficult for club team playing against a wind. Teams will set up around the arc to defend.
Rules to add
- 5 subs permitted in each half" Would agree in general
Rules to keep
- 3 players up at all times. ABSOLUTELY
- Solo and go. ABSOLUTELY
- Advanced mark. ABSOLUTELY
- No back pass to goalkeeper. I THINK SO BUT I THINK INVENTIVE MANAGERS WILL FIND A WAY TO CIRCUMVENT THIS AND REDUCE EFFECTIVENESS. MIGHT NEED MORE THOUGHT
Rules to tweak
- 2 pointer should be from open play only. MAYBE THIS ONE IS FOR THE ABANDONMENT CATEGORY . YOU CANT HAVE A SITUATION WHEREBY SOMEONE IS FOULED GOING FOR A 2 POINTER AND THEN GETS A FREE TO GET 1. I SEE THE BENEFIT IN IT THOUGH SO MAYBE SOME TWEAK THAT ALLOWS A GUY TO SOLO AND KICK THE FREE
- Bring 4 point for goal back to 3. FULLY AGREE. 4 POINTS IS TOO MUCH
Rules to abandon
- The kick out may be difficult for club team playing against a wind. Teams will set up around the arc to defend. I LIKE THIS ONE AND WOULD NOT ABANDON FULLY. WOULD SUGGEST THAT IT NEEDS MODIFYING TO ACCOUNT FOR WIND OR LOWER GRADES WHERE PLAYERS STRUGGLE TO COMFORTABLE CLEAR THE ARC. MAYBE OUTLINE A SET OF CRITERIA WHERE THE KICK OUT GETS TAKEN FROM A DISTANCE A LITTLE FURTHER OUT IN SOME SCENARIOS.
Rules to add
- 5 subs permitted in each half WOULD NEITHER STRONGLY AGREE NOR DISAGREE, BUT INITIAL REACTION WOULD BE NO NEED TO MAKE A CHANGE FOR CHANGE SAKE
anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 953 - 21/10/2024 14:48:55
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Replying To TheFlaker: "There are many positives. We want a more open game for sure. Do we need all the changes? I don't think so but the committee are adamant they all compliment each other. I am not so sure. One thing is for certain. The gap between weaker teams and stronger ones is going to get a lot bigger, especially at club level." I think the gap between weaker and stronger teams is more of a problem at county level. The county boundaries were imposed by our colonial masters to suit their own agenda, which was how best to administer a foreign land with no regard for the native population.
Clubs on the other hand are based on the old parish system which has remained unchanged for hundreds of years. All clubs in any given county will find their own level be it senior, intermediate or junior. The exception to this might be the increase in "super clubs" like Kilmacud, Ballyboden and now Cuala in Dublin, which have more signed up members than the whole of Leitrim.
tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 332 - 21/10/2024 15:22:05
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Replying To tireoghainabu: "I think the gap between weaker and stronger teams is more of a problem at county level. The county boundaries were imposed by our colonial masters to suit their own agenda, which was how best to administer a foreign land with no regard for the native population.
Clubs on the other hand are based on the old parish system which has remained unchanged for hundreds of years. All clubs in any given county will find their own level be it senior, intermediate or junior. The exception to this might be the increase in "super clubs" like Kilmacud, Ballyboden and now Cuala in Dublin, which have more signed up members than the whole of Leitrim." Clubs teams are graded in Leagues and Championships
Counties are graded in the Leagues and somewhat in the Sam/TC.
The Provincial Inter Co Championships is where you get the weak playing the strong.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1918 - 21/10/2024 16:26:38
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Clubs teams are graded in Leagues and Championships
Counties are graded in the Leagues and somewhat in the Sam/TC.
The Provincial Inter Co Championships is where you get the weak playing the strong." It's the exact same at club level. The bottom end of senior and intermediate will get absolutely wiped by bigger teams under new rules as they don't have the players do try and go toe to toe. And smaller squads too.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8099 - 21/10/2024 17:02:52
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The advanced mark is totally ridiculous… catch the ball , have a shot and regardless of the outcome you get another chance… makes a complete laugh of the game… as is handing the ball to the opponent when giving a free away…such nonsense..Leave the scoring system alone… Keep the 3 v 3 and put more restrictions on goalkeepers coming out… use the countdown clock and the miked up referee…!
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2974 - 21/10/2024 20:04:10
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Just think in new rules a team could get 18 points and loose to a team who gets 5 scores I know highly unlikely need get rid of new scoring completely also bring ball forward 50 meters and 2 points for kicking 45 also I don't agree with this new afvangec rules u get 10 seconds and u don't score u then get free ur advantage should be it it's like having ur cake and eating it
Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 950 - 21/10/2024 20:49:32
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Regarding the debate about the scoring system, if we are actually going to bring in 2 pointers outside of the arc then we need 4 point goals.
If we want to see goals then in my opinion the scoring system needs to incentivise this.
Goals are far harder to work than scoring points outside the arc.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1394 - 21/10/2024 23:02:25
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Just so everyone knows
There maybe some rules to be tweaked between now and the final report.
The committee looking at the rules consists of ex inter county managers whose teams played high pressing, attacking football.
They are familiar with all the issues which are currently blighting the game.
There is a logic to all the rules which shouldn't just be abandoned.
4 points for a goal is needed if the two points for a long range shot is needed. Otherwise everyone just shots for two and all teams defend the arc. What's was noticeable the last day was how much space was inside the two point arc, but players are so conditioned to not kicking it in, it wasn't exploited at all.
3 up/back rule - or GAA offside if you like
A no brainer and not that hard to police at all levels - if someone breaks the line in a junior match, I can envisage a few roars from a few fanatics letting the ref know what's going on.
The defensive minded coach has a few delemas that aren't easy to solve
1. Set up in a low block/ double sweeper in the D
The attacking team can bring up their keeper and create an obvious extra man
The overlap will create a two point shot opportunity necessitating the need to bring out the sweepers, leaving 1v1 defenders inside.
2. Hand passing counter attack
Huge space between 40m line and halfway, but too far to handpass, forcing a kick pass.
Leaving sweepers behind out of the counter attack, results in not having enough players up to create an overlap in attack
For me, football matches disend to pure s@#te hawking I'm the last 5-10 minutes when one team is up by 4+ points.
Nothing but deliberate fouling, feinging injuries, deliberate throwing the ball away, slowing up counter attacks etc.
Under the new scoring system, even a 9 point lead can be recovered with two goals and a long range point. 5 instances of time wasting s#@t - housery can result in 5 two point shots also (new 50m punishment rule)
That forces the leading team to keep to going to the end and gives the losing team hope they can come back.
The current system allows a team go 4-5 points up, sit in a low block and time waste through the last 10 minutes.
I'd be for trying all the rules together for one season (which is the plan) and then deciding what will work (which is the plan).
So for all the naysayers
1. current football (both club and county) is not good to watch and is way to defensive (for my liking anyway)
2. There will be no changes for five years if changes arent trialled next year
3. Vote at your club to put all through
4. See how it goes - if it makes the game worse, you can always vote no next year when the vote on permanent implementation takes place.
5. If you never try something you never know if it will work.
6. Changing some without the others will result in a badly thought out set of changes which will end up in a game no one wants to see and ultimately little or no changes
7. No change for another 5 years will lose a generation of players and fans to other sports
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 22/10/2024 01:48:00
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Just so everyone knows
There maybe some rules to be tweaked between now and the final report.
The committee looking at the rules consists of ex inter county managers whose teams played high pressing, attacking football.
They are familiar with all the issues which are currently blighting the game.
There is a logic to all the rules which shouldn't just be abandoned.
4 points for a goal is needed if the two points for a long range shot is needed. Otherwise everyone just shots for two and all teams defend the arc. What's was noticeable the last day was how much space was inside the two point arc, but players are so conditioned to not kicking it in, it wasn't exploited at all.
3 up/back rule - or GAA offside if you like
A no brainer and not that hard to police at all levels - if someone breaks the line in a junior match, I can envisage a few roars from a few fanatics letting the ref know what's going on.
The defensive minded coach has a few delemas that aren't easy to solve
1. Set up in a low block/ double sweeper in the D
The attacking team can bring up their keeper and create an obvious extra man
The overlap will create a two point shot opportunity necessitating the need to bring out the sweepers, leaving 1v1 defenders inside.
2. Hand passing counter attack
Huge space between 40m line and halfway, but too far to handpass, forcing a kick pass.
Leaving sweepers behind out of the counter attack, results in not having enough players up to create an overlap in attack
For me, football matches disend to pure s@#te hawking I'm the last 5-10 minutes when one team is up by 4+ points.
Nothing but deliberate fouling, feinging injuries, deliberate throwing the ball away, slowing up counter attacks etc.
Under the new scoring system, even a 9 point lead can be recovered with two goals and a long range point. 5 instances of time wasting s#@t - housery can result in 5 two point shots also (new 50m punishment rule)
That forces the leading team to keep to going to the end and gives the losing team hope they can come back.
The current system allows a team go 4-5 points up, sit in a low block and time waste through the last 10 minutes.
I'd be for trying all the rules together for one season (which is the plan) and then deciding what will work (which is the plan).
So for all the naysayers
1. current football (both club and county) is not good to watch and is way to defensive (for my liking anyway)
2. There will be no changes for five years if changes arent trialled next year
3. Vote at your club to put all through
4. See how it goes - if it makes the game worse, you can always vote no next year when the vote on permanent implementation takes place.
5. If you never try something you never know if it will work.
6. Changing some without the others will result in a badly thought out set of changes which will end up in a game no one wants to see and ultimately little or no changes
7. No change for another 5 years will lose a generation of players and fans to other sports" Very good argument.
Most people say we have to do something as we can't go on in same direction as we have been on in last 10 years.
Everyone has different ideas about what might work best but this group has come up with a realistic way of meaningful change.
The committee has done well to come up with package of ideas and the package of ideas are interlinked.
This is the first time the GAA has got serious about trying to move the game in a different direction, we may not get another chance.
To fairly judge the package we need to give it a year.
There might be some mad games early on in the season and most managers will give out a lot as they will really be moved out of the comfort zone of what they have gotten used to.
On balance the downsides are wort taking to give this a fair chance to work.
GreenMan1987 (Meath) - Posts: 50 - 22/10/2024 07:26:24
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Regarding the debate about the scoring system, if we are actually going to bring in 2 pointers outside of the arc then we need 4 point goals.
If we want to see goals then in my opinion the scoring system needs to incentivise this.
Goals are far harder to work than scoring points outside the arc." Ya would probably agree with that It will be difficult to get the balance right between incentivising teams to go for goals, and the weaker teams getting absolutely hammered.
hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 417 - 22/10/2024 08:42:42
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I see some protagonists of the 3 up/back system are depending on roars from the sideline to enforce it at club, under age etc..
Ah here....
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1918 - 22/10/2024 08:53:13
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Tomsmith here from Cavan
i dont like the 3 up as you could have a situation where a team would be playing keep ball around the halfway line and tempting one of those 3 come get me . Once one of the 3 crosses the line the player in possession shouts to the Referee ....... Ref he crossed the line..Free in.. The player then disputes decision and Ref moves ball in 50 Yards yes 50 yards and its a handy score... Ough that 50 yards advancement may breed a
tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 3973 - 22/10/2024 10:06:03
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "I see some protagonists of the 3 up/back system are depending on roars from the sideline to enforce it at club, under age etc..
Ah here...." I think shock collars would do the job, like some people have for dogs. If they stray beyond halfway, they get a good blast. Any interfering with the collar is a straight red like the helmet rule in hurling.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2187 - 22/10/2024 11:08:22
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