National Forum

Steps For The Winning Goal

(Oldest Posts First)

Just since there doesn't appear to be an active Tipperary Hurling thread on this forum -

Have a look at the winning goal for Moycarkey-Borris over Kiladangan in their Senior Hurling quarter-final:
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/333537
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I make it 14 steps. Other on Twitter replies to where Clubber TV posted it say either 13 or 15. What does anybody else think?

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2621 - 14/09/2024 21:01:23    2569885

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Just since there doesn't appear to be an active Tipperary Hurling thread on this forum -

Have a look at the winning goal for Moycarkey-Borris over Kiladangan in their Senior Hurling quarter-final:
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/333537
link

I make it 14 steps. Other on Twitter replies to where Clubber TV posted it say either 13 or 15. What does anybody else think?"
He was being fouled. No players protested either , he got the shot away the minute he freed up the second hand.

Gaawestmeath (Westmeath) - Posts: 85 - 16/09/2024 10:25:29    2570083

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Replying To Gaawestmeath:  "
Replying To Pikeman96:  "Just since there doesn't appear to be an active Tipperary Hurling thread on this forum -

Have a look at the winning goal for Moycarkey-Borris over Kiladangan in their Senior Hurling quarter-final:
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/333537
link

I make it 14 steps. Other on Twitter replies to where Clubber TV posted it say either 13 or 15. What does anybody else think?"
He was being fouled. No players protested either , he got the shot away the minute he freed up the second hand."
Although the referee is out of shot, it is safe to assume that he had his arm up to signal an advantage.

The alternative would have been to blow it up for a free in. You also then have to consider if he deemed the foul to be inside the 21m line, that it was then a penalty and black card as the defender deliberately prevented a goal scoring chance.

The technical question I suppose is, does being fouled in practice reset your 4 steps back to 0, where you can then take 4 more, or are you supposed to blow on the 5th step.

In balance I think the referee was right in this case.

SouthOfTheGap (Donegal) - Posts: 704 - 16/09/2024 12:27:02    2570114

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Replying To SouthOfTheGap:  "
Replying To Gaawestmeath:  "[quote=Pikeman96:  "Just since there doesn't appear to be an active Tipperary Hurling thread on this forum -

Have a look at the winning goal for Moycarkey-Borris over Kiladangan in their Senior Hurling quarter-final:
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/333537
link

I make it 14 steps. Other on Twitter replies to where Clubber TV posted it say either 13 or 15. What does anybody else think?"
He was being fouled. No players protested either , he got the shot away the minute he freed up the second hand."
Although the referee is out of shot, it is safe to assume that he had his arm up to signal an advantage.

The alternative would have been to blow it up for a free in. You also then have to consider if he deemed the foul to be inside the 21m line, that it was then a penalty and black card as the defender deliberately prevented a goal scoring chance.

The technical question I suppose is, does being fouled in practice reset your 4 steps back to 0, where you can then take 4 more, or are you supposed to blow on the 5th step.

In balance I think the referee was right in this case."]I'm not sure where this assumption that being fouled means that players can take steps or that the step count goes back to 0. This happens a lot with Shane O Donnell, he scored a goal in a club game where he took about 14 steps, and all the talk then is "he is being fouled" so its ok. It was the same in the game V Wexford, Matt O Hanlon very clearly fouls him and holds him, but he runs about 12 steps, passes it off, and Clare score, but no one cares saying he was being fouled. Thats not the rule. If its a free, you give the free. Advantage doesnt mean a player can run as far as he wants.

Also, if its a free, its a free. There are 3 very specific requirements in the foul for it to be a black card and a penalty, An intentional drag to the ground, an intentional trip, or careless use of the hurl. Holding a player and not letting him through is not on of those, so in that instance, its a free in, and nothing else. People seem to make up rules or use soccer as a basis of he was the last man back so its a card.

james2011 (Wexford) - Posts: 615 - 16/09/2024 12:38:57    2570120

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@SouthOfTheGap - couple of things:

1 - The rule states that if you or a team-mate commit a foul while you're being given an advantage, then you lose that advantage, and it becomes a free to the other team.

The idea is that having an advantage doesn't give you or your team free rein to absolutely lamp an opponent or do whatever else you like. It's not like in rugby, where you might knock the ball on but still be able to go back for a scrum or a penalty that you would have had anyway. So as soon as this lad took the 5th, 6th, 7th step etc., any advantage should have been gone and it should have been a free against him for overcarrying.

2 - The black card & penalty rule applies only in inter-county hurling, not in club hurling.

*IF* the referee was applying the advantage rule, he didn't apply it correctly. The other rule you cite isn't relevant at all. Have to disagree with your assertion that on balance the referee was right. According to the Rule Book, there was a choice of two correct decisions:

1 - Award a free-in on account of the player being held. But this would have denied him the goalscoring opportunity he created by taking all those illegal steps, and would have led to cries of "what about the advantage rule?" by others who don't know the rule properly.

2 - Award a free out for overcarrying. But this would have led to even more complaints.

So, the referee would have been "wrong" no matter which way he was actually right. It's a tough job.....

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2621 - 16/09/2024 13:14:14    2570135

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@james2011 - Thanks. But as I've just pointed out above, there's actually a fourth very specific requirement for the black card and penalty rule to apply - it must be an inter-county game at U17, U20, or senior.

You're right in what you say about the rule, though. Even at inter-county, the black card & penalty rule only applies to deliberately pulling down an opponent, tripping an opponent, of if there's careless use of the hurl in denying an goal-scoring opportunity. "Regular" pulling/dragging/holding to prevent a goal-scoring opportunity, where the man in possession stays standing, is still just an ordinary free and a possible yellow card, but not a black.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2621 - 16/09/2024 13:23:17    2570137

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Steps in hurling and football are near impossible to get right. Most of the time the advantage is given to the forward in this situation. He struck the second he could. Fair play to them.
I'd focus more on the grabbing tackle that's in our game over the last number of years. Every time the hand goes in it has to be a foul. It's never called! It would free up the game no end, and remove bunching.
We could learn allot from watching the good lgfa referees. The rule seem more straight forward around the tackle, and good refs apply it.
Maybe it's a manly thing that you should be able to maul the opposition when they have the ball!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1466 - 16/09/2024 15:45:35    2570188

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "@SouthOfTheGap - couple of things:

1 - The rule states that if you or a team-mate commit a foul while you're being given an advantage, then you lose that advantage, and it becomes a free to the other team.

The idea is that having an advantage doesn't give you or your team free rein to absolutely lamp an opponent or do whatever else you like. It's not like in rugby, where you might knock the ball on but still be able to go back for a scrum or a penalty that you would have had anyway. So as soon as this lad took the 5th, 6th, 7th step etc., any advantage should have been gone and it should have been a free against him for overcarrying.

2 - The black card & penalty rule applies only in inter-county hurling, not in club hurling.

*IF* the referee was applying the advantage rule, he didn't apply it correctly. The other rule you cite isn't relevant at all. Have to disagree with your assertion that on balance the referee was right. According to the Rule Book, there was a choice of two correct decisions:

1 - Award a free-in on account of the player being held. But this would have denied him the goalscoring opportunity he created by taking all those illegal steps, and would have led to cries of "what about the advantage rule?" by others who don't know the rule properly.

2 - Award a free out for overcarrying. But this would have led to even more complaints.

So, the referee would have been "wrong" no matter which way he was actually right. It's a tough job....."
I get your points completely.

I wasn't aware that it wasn't in club hurling, but my excuse is that I'm from Donegal. Also, having read a little in the last hour, am I right in saying that the "D" is included for the purposes of the black card rule.

I think in all cases the advantage must be on the side of the player in possession, because the alternative rewards the player committing the foul, which would be a travesty. The rule book should be amended to reflect what is actually happening in practice.

SouthOfTheGap (Donegal) - Posts: 704 - 16/09/2024 16:10:41    2570194

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Replying To SouthOfTheGap:  "
Replying To Gaawestmeath:  "[quote=Pikeman96:  "Just since there doesn't appear to be an active Tipperary Hurling thread on this forum -

Have a look at the winning goal for Moycarkey-Borris over Kiladangan in their Senior Hurling quarter-final:
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/333537
link

I make it 14 steps. Other on Twitter replies to where Clubber TV posted it say either 13 or 15. What does anybody else think?"
He was being fouled. No players protested either , he got the shot away the minute he freed up the second hand."
Although the referee is out of shot, it is safe to assume that he had his arm up to signal an advantage.

The alternative would have been to blow it up for a free in. You also then have to consider if he deemed the foul to be inside the 21m line, that it was then a penalty and black card as the defender deliberately prevented a goal scoring chance.

The technical question I suppose is, does being fouled in practice reset your 4 steps back to 0, where you can then take 4 more, or are you supposed to blow on the 5th step.

In balance I think the referee was right in this case."]He made the "right" decision, but didn't enforce the rules of the game.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13862 - 16/09/2024 16:11:35    2570195

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The "he was being fouled" argument is a nonsense one that is regularly trotted out to excuse overcarrying. How else is a defender supposed to stop the attacker if they are not legitimately playing the ball? In 99% of cases the initial foul only occurs at step 6 or 7.

Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 803 - 16/09/2024 16:42:21    2570204

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Replying To Malonemagic:  "The "he was being fouled" argument is a nonsense one that is regularly trotted out to excuse overcarrying. How else is a defender supposed to stop the attacker if they are not legitimately playing the ball? In 99% of cases the initial foul only occurs at step 6 or 7."
I qgree 100%.If a player is being fouled ref can give advantage but if the player himself fouls then its either back for the original free or a free against.If the player double hopped while being fouled he would Not be allowed carry on.Too many steps is a foul.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3844 - 16/09/2024 16:56:50    2570210

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "I qgree 100%.If a player is being fouled ref can give advantage but if the player himself fouls then its either back for the original free or a free against.If the player double hopped while being fouled he would Not be allowed carry on.Too many steps is a foul."
Precisely

Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 803 - 16/09/2024 19:53:27    2570238

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"He was being fouled"
Often shouted, rarely questioned, never correct.

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1121 - 16/09/2024 22:07:45    2570261

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@SouthOfTheGap - in fairness, I thought the being from Donegal thing might be working against your knowledge of the finer points of the rules of hurling all right, but I didn't want to say it :)

And yes, you're correct that the 'D' is included in the black card/penalty rule in the inter-county game. When you consider the 'D' has a 13-metre radius, it means there could be a penalty and a black card awarded for a foul that's a full 33 metres from goal. Imagine the "discussion" that would cause.

I'm inclined to agree that the Rule Book could be changed on what happens if you commit a foul yourself while you're being afforded an advantage. Maybe if you commit a technical foul like overcarrying, you'd go back and be given your free anyway. But for an aggressive foul like striking, you'd lose the free and there'd be one given to the other side instead.

Anyway, me old Wexford mate Viking has summed this one up fairly well as regards how most would see it. Referee in this case made the "right" decision, even if was wrong according to the rules.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2621 - 16/09/2024 23:31:53    2570271

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