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Munster Hurling Championship 2025

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Replying To Canuck:  "The answer is not the one in use. Waterford were in the top 6 or 7 teams in the country this year and not in the All -Ireland series. Teams that were lower ranked and not near their level were. That is the reality of this system that greed and money trumps all. What will that do for hurling in Waterford or others in the same situation? Yes we have not won an All-Ireland since 59 but with the exception of one decade have been around the top teams. Now we have to play Russian roulette to get the All-Ireland series that unfortunately includes officiating hurdles. The All -Ireland series is a national competition that should have an open draw. Or else go back to straight knockout and lets get on with the club game."
What I would do is as follows:

There is no way the loser of the Joe Mc should go through.

4th in Munster could play off against 4th in Leinster to take that spot. Waterford were unlucky this year, Cork super lucky.

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2679 - 18/09/2024 20:48:02    2570629

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "What I would do is as follows:

There is no way the loser of the Joe Mc should go through.

4th in Munster could play off against 4th in Leinster to take that spot. Waterford were unlucky this year, Cork super lucky."
Lohan it was not bad luck. It was down right robbery and not the Clare 65 that was one. Tipp draw from a goal scored with the player clearly in the square. That would have kept Tipp where they ended up but the All Ireland finalist that everyone is blowing up, gone.
I don't want our championship decided for anyone this way. Delighted for Clare and well deserved.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2866 - 19/09/2024 03:41:22    2570654

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Replying To Canuck:  "Lohan it was not bad luck. It was down right robbery and not the Clare 65 that was one. Tipp draw from a goal scored with the player clearly in the square. That would have kept Tipp where they ended up but the All Ireland finalist that everyone is blowing up, gone.
I don't want our championship decided for anyone this way. Delighted for Clare and well deserved."
Unfortunately these things happen in sports.

You could say the same about Kilkenny sneaking into the Leinster final, or the ROC red card for nothing.

Sadly we've all winter to think about these things, while Clare are likely still celebrating and fair play to them. They've had to endure a lot themselves in the Limerick era.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3143 - 19/09/2024 08:14:31    2570661

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Unfortunately these things happen in sports.

You could say the same about Kilkenny sneaking into the Leinster final, or the ROC red card for nothing.

Sadly we've all winter to think about these things, while Clare are likely still celebrating and fair play to them. They've had to endure a lot themselves in the Limerick era."
Excluding the All Ireland this year, I have loved following Lohan's Clare since Covid Restrictions lifted. We have had some unbelievable days especially in the Munster Championship and thats why I would be reluctent to change it. Now if we (and the time will come) begin to struggle to get out of Munster my opinion might change but as things stand I love the round robin. This year was the cherry on top winning both National Championships but I have enjoyed the ride to this point too.

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2679 - 19/09/2024 12:04:36    2570722

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Unfortunately these things happen in sports.

You could say the same about Kilkenny sneaking into the Leinster final, or the ROC red card for nothing.

Sadly we've all winter to think about these things, while Clare are likely still celebrating and fair play to them. They've had to endure a lot themselves in the Limerick era."
I agree Dolyerwex but the stakes are too high for the amateur sports guy who has put so much in. The pro gets his salary cheque win or lose. I have advocated for red card review before issuing and all scores in the last two or three minutes reviewed. However the purest on here don't want that. These are the same ones saying these errors can't be avoided when in fact they can. It probably cost Limerick 5 in a row.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2866 - 19/09/2024 15:00:33    2570779

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Replying To Canuck:  "I agree Dolyerwex but the stakes are too high for the amateur sports guy who has put so much in. The pro gets his salary cheque win or lose. I have advocated for red card review before issuing and all scores in the last two or three minutes reviewed. However the purest on here don't want that. These are the same ones saying these errors can't be avoided when in fact they can. It probably cost Limerick 5 in a row."
How do you see a review of all scores in the last 2-3 being reviewed being worked?

A point is a point, regardless what time it happened in.

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2679 - 19/09/2024 15:18:56    2570786

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Replying To Canuck:  "I agree Dolyerwex but the stakes are too high for the amateur sports guy who has put so much in. The pro gets his salary cheque win or lose. I have advocated for red card review before issuing and all scores in the last two or three minutes reviewed. However the purest on here don't want that. These are the same ones saying these errors can't be avoided when in fact they can. It probably cost Limerick 5 in a row."
It likely cost Limerick 6 in a row Canuck in 2019. Plenty of other AIs could have been won or lost if you were to go back over every decision made. Referees are human. Just like players. And just like players they make mistakes. We missed out on a Leinster Final this year on account of one. We had fought back to parity in the AIQF when an earlier refereeing error meant we went down to 14 men for the rest of the game, minus our best player sent off on 2 yellows when the 1st one wasn't. Cork had a case for a clear free in at the end of the AIF. An AI final we both already agree that they only reached after getting favourable decisions from referees in games they weren't even playing in. What I'm saying is where do you draw the line? I personally can't remember a game or title Wexford won where I thought "Well #### me we were lucky with the ref today!". But I don't see how you can change things that much. If you did would you review all the incidents of dirty play that occur in matches also? The ones the refs missed part or all of? That's opening up a whole new can of worms. Would you send a lad off at halftime for a dirty stroke in the 1st half that was caught on video?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13862 - 19/09/2024 16:15:27    2570801

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Replying To Canuck:  "I agree Dolyerwex but the stakes are too high for the amateur sports guy who has put so much in. The pro gets his salary cheque win or lose. I have advocated for red card review before issuing and all scores in the last two or three minutes reviewed. However the purest on here don't want that. These are the same ones saying these errors can't be avoided when in fact they can. It probably cost Limerick 5 in a row."
It likely cost Limerick 6 in a row Canuck in 2019. Plenty of other AIs could have been won or lost if you were to go back over every decision made. Referees are human. Just like players. And just like players they make mistakes. We missed out on a Leinster Final this year on account of one. We had fought back to parity in the AIQF when an earlier refereeing error meant we went down to 14 men for the rest of the game, minus our best player sent off on 2 yellows when the 1st one wasn't. Cork had a case for a clear free in at the end of the AIF. An AI final we both already agree that they only reached after getting favourable decisions from referees in games they weren't even playing in. What I'm saying is where do you draw the line? I personally can't remember a game or title Wexford won where I thought "Well #### me we were lucky with the ref today!". But I don't see how you can change things that much. If you did would you review all the incidents of dirty play that occur in matches also? The ones the refs missed part or all of? That's opening up a whole new can of worms. Would you send a lad off at halftime for a dirty stroke in the 1st half that was caught on video?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13862 - 19/09/2024 16:16:18    2570802

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The ref is human and will make errors. He should be given assistance in making certain decisions. It is only a can of worms if common sense is not used. Like saying X-rays or scans should not be used because the doctor saw nothing wrong. That does not mean someone who needs a band aid gets an Xray.
Many errors are not prohibitive to a team winning because many other factors will play a part. Like time to recover and errors that benefit both sides. The reason I would review red cards is this influences the game at any stage and the possibility of wronging a player. The opposite a player getting away with a serious assault. Scores in the last few minutes because there is no ability to recover from it. This can be done without any delay. There will never be perfection and many more people would be dead if the attitude was don't use the technology available because we might miss something else.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2866 - 19/09/2024 17:57:14    2570832

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The Munster championship is certainly a bear pit and it's unfortunate for the two teams that lose out every year and have to watch lesser teams competing in the All-Ireland series. Much as I enjoy the Munster round robin, I agree with Canuck that a more equitable system should be in place for the All-Ireland series. However, I would not favour his suggested reviewing of incidents in the last 2-3 minutes of games. Refereeing mistakes towards the end of a game are always highlighted whereas mistakes made earlier in matches are often overlooked, even though they can have a major influence on the eventual result.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 583 - 19/09/2024 19:00:20    2570839

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It might be fairer to allow 4th placed teams into the knockouts - so for example you had 3rd place team in Leinster play 4th in Munster and vice versa then there is more equity.
There is certainly no need to retain the qualifier with Joe Mc teams - that makes no sense
But there is one huge drawback to that system - the reason the Munster championship (and to a lesser extent Leinster) is so good is the jeopardy with 3/5.
Dead rubbers are rare, most teams go into the last round with lots to play over. With 4/5 you could lose a lot of that
Jeopardy keeps teams and fans on edge
I remember well the good old days of knockout championship. Big build up to one game, lose it and there was the thought of a long summer with no more games. Generations of hurlers with no chance to learn on the job. Back door was an improvement, round robin was an infinite improvement

Yadse (Limerick) - Posts: 57 - 19/09/2024 21:12:44    2570856

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Replying To Canuck:  "The ref is human and will make errors. He should be given assistance in making certain decisions. It is only a can of worms if common sense is not used. Like saying X-rays or scans should not be used because the doctor saw nothing wrong. That does not mean someone who needs a band aid gets an Xray.
Many errors are not prohibitive to a team winning because many other factors will play a part. Like time to recover and errors that benefit both sides. The reason I would review red cards is this influences the game at any stage and the possibility of wronging a player. The opposite a player getting away with a serious assault. Scores in the last few minutes because there is no ability to recover from it. This can be done without any delay. There will never be perfection and many more people would be dead if the attitude was don't use the technology available because we might miss something else."
I'm not saying not to use the technology, merely asking how and how often will it have to be used? And how long will it take each time?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13862 - 19/09/2024 23:09:57    2570874

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Replying To midlands:  "The Munster championship is certainly a bear pit and it's unfortunate for the two teams that lose out every year and have to watch lesser teams competing in the All-Ireland series. Much as I enjoy the Munster round robin, I agree with Canuck that a more equitable system should be in place for the All-Ireland series. However, I would not favour his suggested reviewing of incidents in the last 2-3 minutes of games. Refereeing mistakes towards the end of a game are always highlighted whereas mistakes made earlier in matches are often overlooked, even though they can have a major influence on the eventual result."
Midlands mistakes at the of a game are highlighted for a reason that is the reality. The reason is there is a reduced chance or none of over coming it. A goal from a square ball can be overcome early in the game if you are good enough. The same in the last minute and you are done. If the goal in Walsh Park was reviewed we would have been in the All-Ireland series. I am not blaming anyone for missing it but it was missed. Giving all the dramatics around a red card take another 30 sec to review. Wexford were on the receiving end of knee jerk reactions this year that is not fair and this influence in a game unwarranted.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2866 - 20/09/2024 01:02:13    2570880

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Replying To Yadse:  "It might be fairer to allow 4th placed teams into the knockouts - so for example you had 3rd place team in Leinster play 4th in Munster and vice versa then there is more equity.
There is certainly no need to retain the qualifier with Joe Mc teams - that makes no sense
But there is one huge drawback to that system - the reason the Munster championship (and to a lesser extent Leinster) is so good is the jeopardy with 3/5.
Dead rubbers are rare, most teams go into the last round with lots to play over. With 4/5 you could lose a lot of that
Jeopardy keeps teams and fans on edge
I remember well the good old days of knockout championship. Big build up to one game, lose it and there was the thought of a long summer with no more games. Generations of hurlers with no chance to learn on the job. Back door was an improvement, round robin was an infinite improvement"
The overall quality of Leinster is not as good, i.e the bottom of Munster would beat the bottom of Leinster 99/100, but the level of entertainment is just as good.

The main difference is obviously promotion/relegation. Ok Kilkenny will come through every year, other than that it's an even mix of Wexford, Galway and Dublin

Teams have come up, gotten a result and stayed up too. It's improving the game, but arguably negatively impacting Leinster teams.

In Munster Limerick will get through, usually Clare, then Cork/Tipp.

Regardless I think the Joe Mac preliminary needs to go. It's a token gesture that helps nobody.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3143 - 20/09/2024 08:04:21    2570890

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Replying To Canuck:  "Midlands mistakes at the of a game are highlighted for a reason that is the reality. The reason is there is a reduced chance or none of over coming it. A goal from a square ball can be overcome early in the game if you are good enough. The same in the last minute and you are done. If the goal in Walsh Park was reviewed we would have been in the All-Ireland series. I am not blaming anyone for missing it but it was missed. Giving all the dramatics around a red card take another 30 sec to review. Wexford were on the receiving end of knee jerk reactions this year that is not fair and this influence in a game unwarranted."
I disagree, Canuck. The most recent example that comes to mind is the Munster Under 20 final where Tipperary edged out Cork by a point. Cork were denied a goal long before the end that would probably have affected the outcome if it had been allowed. The fact that they subsequently missed several chances to win the game is neither here nor there - they should have been awarded the goal. Are you saying that because they had plenty of time to overcome that setback there would be no need to have such a situation reviewed? And I'm sure you recall the outrage when Tipp were awarded a goal against Waterford some years ago when Austin Gleeson clearly caught the ball outside the goal line. Waterford had more than enough time to right the wrong but the fact that they weren't able to do that doesn't mean that it didn't deserve a review (if such were available).

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 583 - 20/09/2024 10:34:39    2570920

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A round robin All Ireland Series would be great for hurling but any more than 3 qualifying from the provincials would ruin them. Cork was buzzing after their win over Limerick in the Park back in May. It was a real pity that wouldn't see the Cork hurlers in the park again until the 2025.

A home and away round robin running into June & July would be unbelievable for the promotion of hurling. They're is just not enough teams unfortunately. You can't have months of championship with hardly any teams eliminated.

If you had a couple of combined teams to come in to the equation late on to make 2 groups of 4 that would be great for hurling. Donal óg floated the idea of a "team Ulster" a few years ago. Of course they wouldn't be competitive enough.

A Leinster team maybe, chosen from all counties bar Kilkenny, Wexford, Dublin and any other county that qualified from Leinster. Some serious hurlers available to that team but could only be brought together once their teams were out of the championship / McDonagh so unlikely to be competitive regardless of the talent. All a bit aspirational unfortunately.

If the Offaly revival keeps going and we could get to a Leinster championship with 5 fairly even teams and we had a second really interesting championship on our hands that would be great start.

dahayeser (Cork) - Posts: 353 - 20/09/2024 10:38:38    2570922

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