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Wexford Club Hurling Championship.

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "I forgot this was a quarter final with winners playing St. James.
It soundss an almighty mess.
The biggest weakness in the GAA really is the amount of avenues for appeal."
It sounds like both clubs were advised to take a replay but one or both refused so it was always going to be a long process. To be fair to county board they brought in some Heavy hitters when it was sent back and I would be amazed if the most recent decision gets changed up the line.

wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 185 - 25/10/2024 13:35:30    2576872

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Replying To wexfordwin:  "It sounds like both clubs were advised to take a replay but one or both refused so it was always going to be a long process. To be fair to county board they brought in some Heavy hitters when it was sent back and I would be amazed if the most recent decision gets changed up the line."
I'd be amazed too, when you consider who the 'heavy hitters' were. Leinster Council would be unlikely to go against them.

After that, the only avenue for Fethard would be the DRA, and that's a costly process. There's a €1,000 deposit to request a hearing, but that's only the start of it. There's your legal costs to consider too, and if you lose, you have to pay the costs of the other side as well. It's basically the GAA equivalent of the Supreme Court. Overall costs of €10,000 or more are common.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2596 - 25/10/2024 14:16:08    2576885

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Replying To Formertownie:  "Still a huge mess .
If fethard are out .
It will always leave a stain in this championship regardless of who wins it .
Not bunclodys fault but still feel they will know they should ld be out and I m sure some members would rather not win it now if they had any conscience and if they go on any further and by chance win it .
How will it be perceived.
You would have to feel sorry for fethard a years effort gone on the back of a ref unwilling to admit a mistake the consequences far outweigh admission of his failure to do so
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Whatever they are they are a committed bunch and did nt deserve this and make great use of the resources they have .
If every team/club had what they had wexford would be a harder team to beat .
I ll say it again too the people officiating at these hearings cannot and do not know the full rules or are not able to interpret them.
Some partly due to unclear guidelines others through arrogance and doing what they feel is right where in most cases they don't get challenged .
This mess goes to prove that .
For every arrogant ref there are even more arrogant officials that will never admit they got it wrong .
The world we live in where very few will take responsibility for their actions or mistakes.
Honesty is becoming less of moral ."
I've genuinely no skin in the game here, but have to say I think your last few lines are out of order.

Wexford CCC, Hearings Committee, etc., are all made up of volunteers who genuinely do their best. Rule Book is not absolutely prescriptive, and is open to interpretation in some places. There's also things like codes, guidelines, and precedents to consider.

Am sure members of the local CCC who originally dealt with it are now disappointed to basically be told by the 'heavy hitters' that they got it wrong, but I don't think any of them would be arrogant enough to argue over it.

Anyway, remember that the CCC has to be filled with volunteers each year, and it won't be long before they're forming the 2025 committee. You're free to put yourself forward.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2596 - 25/10/2024 14:22:18    2576887

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I've genuinely no skin in the game here, but have to say I think your last few lines are out of order.

Wexford CCC, Hearings Committee, etc., are all made up of volunteers who genuinely do their best. Rule Book is not absolutely prescriptive, and is open to interpretation in some places. There's also things like codes, guidelines, and precedents to consider.

Am sure members of the local CCC who originally dealt with it are now disappointed to basically be told by the 'heavy hitters' that they got it wrong, but I don't think any of them would be arrogant enough to argue over it.

Anyway, remember that the CCC has to be filled with volunteers each year, and it won't be long before they're forming the 2025 committee. You're free to put yourself forward."
I think he was pretty dead on. Theres 4 senior reffing ref's in county that fit the bracket spot on (we know who they are) and defo 3 more on boards. Even some of the gatesmen in Wex Pk fit it perfectly. One ironically thrown out of his position this week after the aftermath of the harriers v Gorey game.

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 25/10/2024 14:31:14    2576889

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Replying To Formertownie:  "Still a huge mess .
If fethard are out .
It will always leave a stain in this championship regardless of who wins it .
Not bunclodys fault but still feel they will know they should ld be out and I m sure some members would rather not win it now if they had any conscience and if they go on any further and by chance win it .
How will it be perceived.
You would have to feel sorry for fethard a years effort gone on the back of a ref unwilling to admit a mistake the consequences far outweigh admission of his failure to do so
.
Whatever they are they are a committed bunch and did nt deserve this and make great use of the resources they have .
If every team/club had what they had wexford would be a harder team to beat .
I ll say it again too the people officiating at these hearings cannot and do not know the full rules or are not able to interpret them.
Some partly due to unclear guidelines others through arrogance and doing what they feel is right where in most cases they don't get challenged .
This mess goes to prove that .
For every arrogant ref there are even more arrogant officials that will never admit they got it wrong .
The world we live in where very few will take responsibility for their actions or mistakes.
Honesty is becoming less of moral ."
Do you know the reasons as to why Leinster GAA threw out the origional CCC verdict? .. because it was zero to do with rules or how they interpreted them .. it was to do with the process.

I doubt Rathnure / St James will be too worried that the championship is 'stained' if either go on to win it.

I'm looking at my clubs nomination form for 2025 Wexford GAA - should I add your name?

MyOhMi (Wexford) - Posts: 153 - 25/10/2024 14:47:05    2576891

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Replying To MyOhMi:  "Do you know the reasons as to why Leinster GAA threw out the origional CCC verdict? .. because it was zero to do with rules or how they interpreted them .. it was to do with the process.

I doubt Rathnure / St James will be too worried that the championship is 'stained' if either go on to win it.

I'm looking at my clubs nomination form for 2025 Wexford GAA - should I add your name?"
I've served at county level in the past, and may well be doing so again next year. Am sure I'll be nominated via other proper channels anyway if I do end up going forward, but if I end up stuck, I'll let you know. Thanks for the offer.

I haven't actually served on CCC, and have said here before that I don't know if I would. I know the tough job it is. That's why I'm reluctant to criticise them myself, and don't like seeing them criticised by others.

And no, I still don't know for sure what processes that the Leinster hearing said weren't in order the first time around, or the exact reasons for this week's meeting coming to a different decision.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2596 - 25/10/2024 15:04:08    2576892

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@MyOhMi - sorry! just realised your post was in reply to FormerTownie, and not to my reply to his post.

So turns out that you're actually backing me up with a suggestion that he could go forward for a position too, if he wanted to. So thanks again. And I don't mean it sarcastically this time! :)

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2596 - 25/10/2024 15:07:17    2576894

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Has anybody seen the reasons why the Wexford CCC decision was overturned or the report from Wednesday night? Fethard are in a tight spot here, the cost of the DRA action is one thing, chance of winning it another factor but one of the first things you are told on the field is to stand up for yourself and your teammates at all times. The club might feel their players deserve to be backed all the way in this case as they have been absolutely wronged here by an incompetent referee. I'm not sure how Bunclody really want to go onto the semi final in such circumstances either. Think they would still be best advised to publicly offer a replay to settle this.

Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 296 - 25/10/2024 15:30:56    2576901

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I've genuinely no skin in the game here, but have to say I think your last few lines are out of order.

Wexford CCC, Hearings Committee, etc., are all made up of volunteers who genuinely do their best. Rule Book is not absolutely prescriptive, and is open to interpretation in some places. There's also things like codes, guidelines, and precedents to consider.

Am sure members of the local CCC who originally dealt with it are now disappointed to basically be told by the 'heavy hitters' that they got it wrong, but I don't think any of them would be arrogant enough to argue over it.

Anyway, remember that the CCC has to be filled with volunteers each year, and it won't be long before they're forming the 2025 committee. You're free to put yourself forward."
Unfortunately I can t take that back as from experience I feel that way
where the main majority are doing it for the.right reasons there are a small minority that do as they see fit . And love the power .
And the main point was the rules are not copper fastened and the processes are much the same. And they use that to nake wrong judgements .
All I'm saying is when challenged and I mean when how often does if fall down . Some through genuine error and a minority from egos if yiu can't se that I m sorry .
Is it time to have a process where when needed the people that are brought in are as qualified as the ones that were appointed for the hearing the second time . Or where if someone has an appeal they can get proper advice from equally qualified people that xsn give them an indication whether it gas any chance.
I m sure Fethard are seething and who could blame them.
I have the upmost respect for people who put themselves forward if they do do for the greater good . Honesty unfortunately in sport is becoming less obvious that's from top to bottom inc players coaches club reps u name it and in every sport . Everyone is looking out for themselves you don't have to agree it's just my opinion .

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 299 - 25/10/2024 15:33:40    2576902

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Replying To Timbertony:  "Has anybody seen the reasons why the Wexford CCC decision was overturned or the report from Wednesday night? Fethard are in a tight spot here, the cost of the DRA action is one thing, chance of winning it another factor but one of the first things you are told on the field is to stand up for yourself and your teammates at all times. The club might feel their players deserve to be backed all the way in this case as they have been absolutely wronged here by an incompetent referee. I'm not sure how Bunclody really want to go onto the semi final in such circumstances either. Think they would still be best advised to publicly offer a replay to settle this."
Facts are it's not fair on either team. If Fethard won their appeal, it wouldn't be fair on Bunclody and vice versa. Fethard believe they scored more in ET but would the ref have blown up if Bunclody's goal was an equalizer rather than to put them 1 point up - I think so. In that regard it would have been penalties regardless. Rathnure will be hard to topple by either St James or Bunclody but I really don't think it should taint Bunclody's campaign.

john619 (None) - Posts: 2 - 25/10/2024 15:59:32    2576909

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Replying To Formertownie:  "Unfortunately I can t take that back as from experience I feel that way
where the main majority are doing it for the.right reasons there are a small minority that do as they see fit . And love the power .
And the main point was the rules are not copper fastened and the processes are much the same. And they use that to nake wrong judgements .
All I'm saying is when challenged and I mean when how often does if fall down . Some through genuine error and a minority from egos if yiu can't se that I m sorry .
Is it time to have a process where when needed the people that are brought in are as qualified as the ones that were appointed for the hearing the second time . Or where if someone has an appeal they can get proper advice from equally qualified people that xsn give them an indication whether it gas any chance.
I m sure Fethard are seething and who could blame them.
I have the upmost respect for people who put themselves forward if they do do for the greater good . Honesty unfortunately in sport is becoming less obvious that's from top to bottom inc players coaches club reps u name it and in every sport . Everyone is looking out for themselves you don't have to agree it's just my opinion ."
Thing is, very few rules anywhere are absolutely copper fastened. Not even the law of the land. That's why we have the Supreme Court in the first place. You can only bring an appeal there against another court's decision on a point of law, not just because you think the other court made the "wrong" decision and you're unhappy with it.

And the fact that the Supreme Court sometimes overturns decisions means that even Senior Counsel and the judges of the lower court have been wrong in their interpretation and application of the law. In fairness, it's unrealistic to expect to hold volunteer members of a GAA committee to a higher standard than this.

On other points - maybe Wexford erred by not bringing in the 'heavy hitters' for the first hearing, but fact that they could be brought in for the second shows that there already is a process where such people can be brought in as and when needed.

Similarly, it's already open to a club that's lodging an appeal to go and get relevant advice, be that from a GAA person or a legal person. Only rule here is that a club can't get advice from a person who'll be sitting on the committee that's dealing with the matter, for obvious reasons.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2596 - 25/10/2024 18:04:02    2576931

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Thing is, very few rules anywhere are absolutely copper fastened. Not even the law of the land. That's why we have the Supreme Court in the first place. You can only bring an appeal there against another court's decision on a point of law, not just because you think the other court made the "wrong" decision and you're unhappy with it.

And the fact that the Supreme Court sometimes overturns decisions means that even Senior Counsel and the judges of the lower court have been wrong in their interpretation and application of the law. In fairness, it's unrealistic to expect to hold volunteer members of a GAA committee to a higher standard than this.

On other points - maybe Wexford erred by not bringing in the 'heavy hitters' for the first hearing, but fact that they could be brought in for the second shows that there already is a process where such people can be brought in as and when needed.

Similarly, it's already open to a club that's lodging an appeal to go and get relevant advice, be that from a GAA person or a legal person. Only rule here is that a club can't get advice from a person who'll be sitting on the committee that's dealing with the matter, for obvious reasons."
You are right how can we as volunteers be capable of making these decisions where as you state the legal profession don't always get it right .

But they have the benefit of studying for many years before qualifying to at least be in a position to know the processes and the law . In general terms .
How many volunteers practice law in the judiciary system
So how can we have confidence in volunteers being capable of making these decisions .
This particular case leaves more doubt than ever that mistakes are made not through malice but just not understanding or knowing .
Who should do it yes.
if it's clear cut volunteers can but if it's more complicated bring in the heavy hitters as you say . Like in this week's episode. I assume they get expenses.

Maybe there should be a consultation process for appeals and direction given as to if its worthwhile . There was reference to kehoe v rapps his appeal got his ban reduced . Assume something was either wrongly interpreted there too..
I m not down on the volunteers who do it I m just saying it's unfair on them and the other parties if they are not fully qualified to do it .
As I ve said befor more often than not any decision/punishment is prob merrited and not challenged . This is where honesty comes in.
If you find a loophole do u appeal even though u are in the wrong .
Or if you feel you ve been wronged in the process by exaggeration or lies . Even though u could still have been In the wrong .
I an not down on the volunteers but surely they.are put in an.awkward position from the outset .
And yes I still feel there are egos operating within the system I ve experienced some of them so I m not just picking it out of the air .

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 299 - 26/10/2024 00:19:25    2576967

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Replying To Formertownie:  "You are right how can we as volunteers be capable of making these decisions where as you state the legal profession don't always get it right .

But they have the benefit of studying for many years before qualifying to at least be in a position to know the processes and the law . In general terms .
How many volunteers practice law in the judiciary system
So how can we have confidence in volunteers being capable of making these decisions .
This particular case leaves more doubt than ever that mistakes are made not through malice but just not understanding or knowing .
Who should do it yes.
if it's clear cut volunteers can but if it's more complicated bring in the heavy hitters as you say . Like in this week's episode. I assume they get expenses.

Maybe there should be a consultation process for appeals and direction given as to if its worthwhile . There was reference to kehoe v rapps his appeal got his ban reduced . Assume something was either wrongly interpreted there too..
I m not down on the volunteers who do it I m just saying it's unfair on them and the other parties if they are not fully qualified to do it .
As I ve said befor more often than not any decision/punishment is prob merrited and not challenged . This is where honesty comes in.
If you find a loophole do u appeal even though u are in the wrong .
Or if you feel you ve been wronged in the process by exaggeration or lies . Even though u could still have been In the wrong .
I an not down on the volunteers but surely they.are put in an.awkward position from the outset .
And yes I still feel there are egos operating within the system I ve experienced some of them so I m not just picking it out of the air ."
I don't think you are saying anything unreasonable or untrue there. The CCC have my utmost respect, a pure thankless task if ever there was one, and no reward, pecuniary or otherwise, for it. Like anyone else in life they can make mistakes, and in fairness to them generally they try correct them or own them if they do.
The same can't be said for every referee though. Most are good, honest, fair people. But not all of them.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 26/10/2024 08:16:12    2576977

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Replying To Viking66:  "I don't think you are saying anything unreasonable or untrue there. The CCC have my utmost respect, a pure thankless task if ever there was one, and no reward, pecuniary or otherwise, for it. Like anyone else in life they can make mistakes, and in fairness to them generally they try correct them or own them if they do.
The same can't be said for every referee though. Most are good, honest, fair people. But not all of them."
Jenkins, McGrath, Owens & Martin.

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 26/10/2024 08:44:51    2576981

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Think I'll just leave it here by saying that maybe myself and Formertownie are closer to thinking the same about things than I first realised.

But for what it's worth, on the Richie Kehoe suspension and appeal - I don't know the exact ins and outs of that particular one either, but I do know that the two-match ban he originally got tallies with the suspension for 'striking with the hurl, either with force or causing injury'.

And the one-match ban that it was reduced to tallies with the suspension for 'striking with the hurl, with minimal force'.

Would seem that the original meeting deemed him guilty of the first of those, but then at the appeal, the Harriers convinced the different committee that it was only the second - e.g. 'Ah lads, he didn't hit him that hard.......'

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2596 - 26/10/2024 11:39:50    2576997

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Is the Fethard &'Bunclody saga over?

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 28/10/2024 20:22:01    2577383

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Replying To countyman2022:  "Is the Fethard &'Bunclody saga over?"
Not sure but Bunclody v St James, IHC SF, is fixed for 3 o'clock in the Park this coming Saturday. Stephen Burke to referee it.

https://wexfordgaa.ie/club-fixtures/?clubid=1250

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 29/10/2024 09:28:44    2577416

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Replying To countyman2022:  "Is the Fethard &'Bunclody saga over?"
From what i can gather Fethard have appealed to Leinster GAA and this is due to be heard early this week. The final route then is the DRA - but that brings large costs (the high court for GAA) and if you loose the case you pay the costs of the other club. But I do agree - lessons probably need to be learned. Very difficult having Club volunteers solely involved in this process because normally any overturned decision is caused by interpretation of the rules .. One reason (of a few) why Leinster GAA overturned the initial decision was around the referee signing his match report in Irish and then his subsequent clarification report in English.

Wexford GAA are 100% committed for the semi final to go ahead this Saturday and the final then the following Sunday.

St James played and beat St Mullins by 10 points over the weekend.

MyOhMi (Wexford) - Posts: 153 - 29/10/2024 09:29:53    2577417

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Replying To countyman2022:  "Is the Fethard &'Bunclody saga over?"
Not sure but Bunclody v St James, IHC SF, is fixed for 3 o'clock in the Park this coming Saturday. Stephen Burke to referee it.

https://wexfordgaa.ie/club-fixtures/?clubid=1250

Just noticed all 3 of Bunclodys hurling teams are in Semifinals. Mickey Laffan must be doing something right. Lloyd Colfer kept their footballers up Senior too. Shows what good managers can do for a club.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 29/10/2024 09:31:43    2577418

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Replying To MyOhMi:  "From what i can gather Fethard have appealed to Leinster GAA and this is due to be heard early this week. The final route then is the DRA - but that brings large costs (the high court for GAA) and if you loose the case you pay the costs of the other club. But I do agree - lessons probably need to be learned. Very difficult having Club volunteers solely involved in this process because normally any overturned decision is caused by interpretation of the rules .. One reason (of a few) why Leinster GAA overturned the initial decision was around the referee signing his match report in Irish and then his subsequent clarification report in English.

Wexford GAA are 100% committed for the semi final to go ahead this Saturday and the final then the following Sunday.

St James played and beat St Mullins by 10 points over the weekend."
Mullins were missing 10 starters from their county final team but thought the Jimmies were good! Especially Shane Murphy. Thought the same last couple years myself but he can't play intercounty unfortunately.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 29/10/2024 21:16:04    2577526

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