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Replying To WEX98: "I disagree. This sets a precedent, we've had many games over the years where scores weren't recorded by the referee because an umpire waved a point wide, or games where wides where given as a score. Never before has the result of a game been overturned because of the scores recorded.
Only last month, Oylegate and Gusserane played an U16 Camoige County Final. The game finished level in normal time with Gusserane winning in extra time. However during normal time Gusserane were awarded a point by the umpire that was at least 1 foot wide, this was obvious to everyone at the game and highlighted to the referee by the Oylegate manager when it happened and again at half time. Are you now saying at if we had the luxury of video evidence that the result of this County final should be overturned and awarded to Oylegate as they technically won by one point." Yes it has. I was there when a result in Wexford Park was overturned on video evidence.
This is different to the Oylegate camogie final. Sure in our game against Horeswood Cathal Doyle got a point that was waved wide. Even a lad on the Horeswood line, who was standing behind it, reckoned it was a foot over. You are right, that happens all the time.
The referee didn't keep track of the awarded scores this time though.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 17/10/2024 07:15:19
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: "Solicitors involved? Oh dear. It's exactly one month to start of the Leinster Senior Hurling Championship.
There might not be a representative from Wexford, the way this is developing." It's really a pity that both clubs did not agree on a replay as apparently they were encouraged to do. Sounds like it will go all the way to the top which will take a few weeks.
Objections in Dublin are not that unusual especially to illegal players like a lad coming up to play for a weekend. It was said to me before that such an objection would be possible in Wexford for loads of players too because so many players are not technically legal. In other words they are not from the parish in which they are playing!!!
wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 185 - 17/10/2024 07:21:39
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: "Solicitors involved? Oh dear. It's exactly one month to start of the Leinster Senior Hurling Championship.
There might not be a representative from Wexford, the way this is developing." Good job its the intermediate championship then.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 17/10/2024 08:17:58
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Replying To wexfordwin: "It's really a pity that both clubs did not agree on a replay as apparently they were encouraged to do. Sounds like it will go all the way to the top which will take a few weeks.
Objections in Dublin are not that unusual especially to illegal players like a lad coming up to play for a weekend. It was said to me before that such an objection would be possible in Wexford for loads of players too because so many players are not technically legal. In other words they are not from the parish in which they are playing!!!" As in didn't play for their club since u12 or u14?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 17/10/2024 09:22:13
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Replying To Onfor15: "People are over thinking this and getting way too complicated.
The fact of the matter is that Fethard scored more than Bunclody. The referee made an error in recording the scoreline. The rules allow for the county board to correct that error. Therefore Fethard have been correctly declared winners." The ref, ironically in this case, not putting his hand up in admitting his mistake with keeping the score in extra time has made this situation way worse. Whoever leaked that "clarification note" didn't clarify anything. The old saying of when your in a hole stop digging comes to mind.
Hard enough to be blaming the county board in this case. I'm sure they tried to get a replay agreed but when they were required to watch it back it was obviously clear that Fethard won. Same with local media reports after the game, there was no mention at all of a controversial score in extra time. I still have no idea why Fethard went ahead with the penalties, that goes against them a bit. Would have sympathy for Bunclody here too, especially if a handy free was given at end to "make a draw of it" as said here and if ref was telling them a different score during extra time. Can't see their appeal going anywhere though.
Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 296 - 17/10/2024 10:36:19
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Two things in relation to points raised above:
1. The camogie example is in no way relevant. The Camogie Association operates under a different rule book and has different procedures in place for a case like this.
2. If Fethard had refused to take penalties, they'd have been deemed to have caused "premature termination of the game", and it would have been awarded to Bunclody. This would have been a much harder position for Fethard to come back from than the one that they did find themselves in. They were correct to take penalties, even if they were 100% sure that the penalties weren't actually needed.
Can't help thinking it's an awful pity that Fethard didn't win the penalty shoot-out, because then this whole thing would have been a lot simpler.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2596 - 17/10/2024 11:23:28
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Two things in relation to points raised above:
1. The camogie example is in no way relevant. The Camogie Association operates under a different rule book and has different procedures in place for a case like this.
2. If Fethard had refused to take penalties, they'd have been deemed to have caused "premature termination of the game", and it would have been awarded to Bunclody. This would have been a much harder position for Fethard to come back from than the one that they did find themselves in. They were correct to take penalties, even if they were 100% sure that the penalties weren't actually needed.
Can't help thinking it's an awful pity that Fethard didn't win the penalty shoot-out, because then this whole thing would have been a lot simpler." Interesting if they had ve won on penalties would it have even been looked at .
Only good thing that might come from this is hopefully referees and their officials will be more vigilant .
Only works if ref is staying in contact though with them .
If this game was played in wex park would there have been a 4th official to possibly right the wrong on the day or can he do that .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 299 - 17/10/2024 11:34:10
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Replying To countyman2022: "Good job its the intermediate championship then." Of course, Intermediate. But it's the same difference. Both the Senior and Intermediate Leinster championship quarter-finals are due to be played on the weekend 16/17 November.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2652 - 17/10/2024 11:39:13
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Replying To OpenStandWall: "Serious questions need to be asked of the county board in the off season by clubs from what has transpired in the last few weeks in particular by Bunclody and Fethard.
Is there any word on if Bunclody are lodging an appeal to the Leinster council?" What club are you in and why aren't you asking them of your own County Board rep?
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1783 - 17/10/2024 11:53:08
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Replying To WEX98: "I disagree. This sets a precedent, we've had many games over the years where scores weren't recorded by the referee because an umpire waved a point wide, or games where wides where given as a score. Never before has the result of a game been overturned because of the scores recorded.
Only last month, Oylegate and Gusserane played an U16 Camoige County Final. The game finished level in normal time with Gusserane winning in extra time. However during normal time Gusserane were awarded a point by the umpire that was at least 1 foot wide, this was obvious to everyone at the game and highlighted to the referee by the Oylegate manager when it happened and again at half time. Are you now saying at if we had the luxury of video evidence that the result of this County final should be overturned and awarded to Oylegate as they technically won by one point." That isn't the same, at all. A point was awarded, the white flag raised, and the score was added to the scoreboard and everyone at the game had no doubt that Fethard scored.
The scoreboard incorrectly gave Bunclody one more point. The ref is no saying he disallowed a point, despite not informing anyone at the game, including officials with him, that he for whatever reason he was disallowing a score.
This isn't a disputed point or someone thinking a score should have counted. It was a score that he didn't count properly. Very different than a score waved wide and not at all comparable
james2011 (Wexford) - Posts: 615 - 17/10/2024 14:45:14
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Two things in relation to points raised above:
1. The camogie example is in no way relevant. The Camogie Association operates under a different rule book and has different procedures in place for a case like this.
2. If Fethard had refused to take penalties, they'd have been deemed to have caused "premature termination of the game", and it would have been awarded to Bunclody. This would have been a much harder position for Fethard to come back from than the one that they did find themselves in. They were correct to take penalties, even if they were 100% sure that the penalties weren't actually needed.
Can't help thinking it's an awful pity that Fethard didn't win the penalty shoot-out, because then this whole thing would have been a lot simpler." It wasn't Camogie
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 17/10/2024 15:28:21
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Replying To Viking66: "It wasn't Camogie" It was Football!!! Still different administration I know;-) Same referees though...
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 17/10/2024 15:42:16
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Replying To Viking66: "It was Football!!! Still different administration I know;-) Same referees though..." Well, WEX98 gave an example from what he said was Oylegate v Gusserane in an U16 camogie final, and that's what I was referring back to.
If it was actually ladies football instead, then same point stands anyway, that any appeal would be governed by a different Rule Book, and so isn't directly relevant here either.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2596 - 17/10/2024 16:03:34
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Well, WEX98 gave an example from what he said was Oylegate v Gusserane in an U16 camogie final, and that's what I was referring back to.
If it was actually ladies football instead, then same point stands anyway, that any appeal would be governed by a different Rule Book, and so isn't directly relevant here either." Ah ok. I thought you meant the game I was umpiring in the Park where the referee got the score wrong, awarded the cup, and then the cup was taken back when it was shown that he had got the score written down wrong.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 17/10/2024 17:12:49
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Two things in relation to points raised above:
1. The camogie example is in no way relevant. The Camogie Association operates under a different rule book and has different procedures in place for a case like this.
2. If Fethard had refused to take penalties, they'd have been deemed to have caused "premature termination of the game", and it would have been awarded to Bunclody. This would have been a much harder position for Fethard to come back from than the one that they did find themselves in. They were correct to take penalties, even if they were 100% sure that the penalties weren't actually needed.
Can't help thinking it's an awful pity that Fethard didn't win the penalty shoot-out, because then this whole thing would have been a lot simpler." Your completely missing the point, that was just a recent example from my experience. Let's say it happens in one of the semi finals this weekend........ what then?
WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 473 - 17/10/2024 18:22:28
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Replying To james2011: "That isn't the same, at all. A point was awarded, the white flag raised, and the score was added to the scoreboard and everyone at the game had no doubt that Fethard scored.
The scoreboard incorrectly gave Bunclody one more point. The ref is no saying he disallowed a point, despite not informing anyone at the game, including officials with him, that he for whatever reason he was disallowing a score.
This isn't a disputed point or someone thinking a score should have counted. It was a score that he didn't count properly. Very different than a score waved wide and not at all comparable" Of course it's the same. Waved wide or not recorded is irrelevant, it's either a score or not.......and now you have grounds to use video evidence to determine if it was or wasn't a score.
WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 473 - 17/10/2024 18:26:44
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Replying To james2011: "That isn't the same, at all. A point was awarded, the white flag raised, and the score was added to the scoreboard and everyone at the game had no doubt that Fethard scored.
The scoreboard incorrectly gave Bunclody one more point. The ref is no saying he disallowed a point, despite not informing anyone at the game, including officials with him, that he for whatever reason he was disallowing a score.
This isn't a disputed point or someone thinking a score should have counted. It was a score that he didn't count properly. Very different than a score waved wide and not at all comparable" I was at two County finals (GAA just for clarity!) where there was no score boards in operation and people on the side line had various opinions on what the score was and how much time was left.
WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 473 - 17/10/2024 18:29:36
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For those of you saying that Bunclody should've offered a replay....
My understanding was that a replay was never on the cards and that there likely wasn't much interest in it from either club (And also that the "soft free" in the end wasn't that soft as there was a slap-down and a yellow card given for it)
Also, for me, Bunclody would have legitimate grounds to appeal based on the score being wrong in extra-time. Bunclody could always argue that if they had've been a point down rather than level according to the referee (Or level rather than being a point up), their decision-making on the pitch would have been impacted and hence one cannot just say because Fethard were wrongly denied a point, Fethard would've won the game
You can argue that Fethard would probably have won the game (Likely true) and you can argue that Fethard deserved to win the game more than Bunclody (Also likely to be true) but you cannot definitively say Fethard would've won the game
And FWIW, (I'm no lawyer but as there are solicitors involved, this will get legalistic), I think awarding Fethard the game based on them deserving to win/being more likely to win might not hold up when the legal eagles get involved
ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 350 - 17/10/2024 19:31:17
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Replying To WEX98: "Of course it's the same. Waved wide or not recorded is irrelevant, it's either a score or not.......and now you have grounds to use video evidence to determine if it was or wasn't a score." I think you are missing the point. There isn't a dispute about whether a score was or wasn't given. It was given. The dispute is that it wasn't recorded by the referee, as it should have been. It would've been like the referee in the AI final deciding Cork v Clare was a draw, when everyone else there in Croke Park knew it wasn't. Everyone at the Fethard Bunclody game, from linesmen to stats men, had it that Fethard had won by a point. Only the referee thought different.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 17/10/2024 20:30:56
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Replying To ElGranSenor: "For those of you saying that Bunclody should've offered a replay....
My understanding was that a replay was never on the cards and that there likely wasn't much interest in it from either club (And also that the "soft free" in the end wasn't that soft as there was a slap-down and a yellow card given for it)
Also, for me, Bunclody would have legitimate grounds to appeal based on the score being wrong in extra-time. Bunclody could always argue that if they had've been a point down rather than level according to the referee (Or level rather than being a point up), their decision-making on the pitch would have been impacted and hence one cannot just say because Fethard were wrongly denied a point, Fethard would've won the game
You can argue that Fethard would probably have won the game (Likely true) and you can argue that Fethard deserved to win the game more than Bunclody (Also likely to be true) but you cannot definitively say Fethard would've won the game
And FWIW, (I'm no lawyer but as there are solicitors involved, this will get legalistic), I think awarding Fethard the game based on them deserving to win/being more likely to win might not hold up when the legal eagles get involved" It's going to turn into a huge mess. It probably has already. I feel sorry for the 2 clubs, and St James and whoever wins between Rathnure and the Alley.
Maybe going forwards a referee should stop the game if the scoreboard is wrong, or should regularly update both teams and his fellow officials if the game is in a venue with no scoreboard or if the scoreboard isnt working.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 17/10/2024 20:35:47
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