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Replying To wexfordwin: "I heard that both teams were encouraged to replay the game but decided to go through with the objections. Makes it messy now and almost certain that championship won't be played in time for Leinster which is tough on Rathnure who look like they could be competitive there." I heard something similar, but not quite the same - that Bunclody were advised to offer a replay, because there was a chance any full hearing might turn out the way it did. The assumption was that Fethard would accept that offer. But that Bunclody decided not to make that offer, for fear it would be an admission on their part that the referee did actually get things wrong, and that this would end up going against them.
I see it's official now anyway. There's a statement on the Wexford GAA website.
I can't see Bunclody not appealing it, no matter how strong the video evidence is, because they'll be looking for some flaw in procedures or some other technical point anyway. Could drag on a long time if it goes all the way to the DRA, and as you point out, that means championship unlikely to be finished in time for Leinster.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 14/10/2024 11:42:34
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Replying To Timbertony: "Referee ultimately responsible for keeping score, not umpire. You would have sympathy for anyone making a genuine mistake but when he ignored the protests of his own lineman (as stated on here), then sympathy will be in very short supply. Not sure why Bunclody went along with it either, sure they must have known they were beaten too." Bunclody are very unlucky in this case. They were repeatedly told the wrong score during the course of that extra time.
They were still a pt up on the scoreboard after the two mins of overtime in extra time when the ref gave Fethard a free with the last play of the game to in his mind make it a draw to keep everyone happy.
If he had kept the proper score it would have still been a draw IMO as he would have blown the full time whistle when the scores were level like what happenes 99 percent of the time.
Paull (Wexford) - Posts: 187 - 14/10/2024 11:47:39
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Replying To Paull: "Bunclody are very unlucky in this case. They were repeatedly told the wrong score during the course of that extra time.
They were still a pt up on the scoreboard after the two mins of overtime in extra time when the ref gave Fethard a free with the last play of the game to in his mind make it a draw to keep everyone happy.
If he had kept the proper score it would have still been a draw IMO as he would have blown the full time whistle when the scores were level like what happenes 99 percent of the time." I wasn't actually aware of that, and yes, that would be hugely unfortunate for Bunclody.
There's obviously provision in the Rule Book to overturn the score of a game if the unedited video evidence is compelling. But to the best of my knowledge, there's no provision to cancel any individual score, e.g. one from a free that maybe wouldn't have been a free if the referee had known it wasn't one "to make a draw of it" after all.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 14/10/2024 13:21:38
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Replying To Paull: "Bunclody are very unlucky in this case. They were repeatedly told the wrong score during the course of that extra time.
They were still a pt up on the scoreboard after the two mins of overtime in extra time when the ref gave Fethard a free with the last play of the game to in his mind make it a draw to keep everyone happy.
If he had kept the proper score it would have still been a draw IMO as he would have blown the full time whistle when the scores were level like what happenes 99 percent of the time." Fair enough I wasn't aware of that side of it. Maybe fatigue played a part in the referee's error too but it's hard to understand how an error could be made on a 0-7 to 1-3 scoreline. Was there a disputed score at all?
Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 303 - 14/10/2024 14:49:56
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I heard the ref disallowed a score and told the Co. Board this but they didn't/wouldn't believe him....an odd stance to take against one of your own refs.
LarryOBrother (Wexford) - Posts: 412 - 14/10/2024 15:04:06
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I wasn't actually aware of that, and yes, that would be hugely unfortunate for Bunclody.
There's obviously provision in the Rule Book to overturn the score of a game if the unedited video evidence is compelling. But to the best of my knowledge, there's no provision to cancel any individual score, e.g. one from a free that maybe wouldn't have been a free if the referee had known it wasn't one "to make a draw of it" after all." I think that's exactly what happened, a very soft free was awarded at the end of the game to make it a draw
JT22 (Wexford) - Posts: 49 - 14/10/2024 15:29:36
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Replying To Timbertony: "Fair enough I wasn't aware of that side of it. Maybe fatigue played a part in the referee's error too but it's hard to understand how an error could be made on a 0-7 to 1-3 scoreline. Was there a disputed score at all?" @sportsnewsIRE on twitter seems to have the referees report somehow. Appears he did cancel out a score from fethard at half time of ET and that's where the confusion lies. Interesting the Co Board went against that and awarded it to Fethard. Would be a sign they don't believe him that he cancelled off a score at the time?
Fallout2 (Wexford) - Posts: 10 - 14/10/2024 15:34:52
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Replying To Fallout2: "@sportsnewsIRE on twitter seems to have the referees report somehow. Appears he did cancel out a score from fethard at half time of ET and that's where the confusion lies. Interesting the Co Board went against that and awarded it to Fethard. Would be a sign they don't believe him that he cancelled off a score at the time?" Yes i thought that very strange. First would question how they came to obtain the referees report, shouldnt be made available for social media. Anyways its out there now but must have looked clear over the bar when they went against his him, especially on a video evidence which different angles can look different.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 447 - 14/10/2024 16:56:50
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Replying To alwaysasub: "Yes i thought that very strange. First would question how they came to obtain the referees report, shouldnt be made available for social media. Anyways its out there now but must have looked clear over the bar when they went against his him, especially on a video evidence which different angles can look different." Is a ref's report not final? I thought this was the case with the 2 yellows debacle. Its as if Co Board realise championship will not be played off in time and just put Fethard through. Hope Bunclody appeal. Also, how has the refs report got out?
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 730 - 15/10/2024 08:50:00
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I heard something similar, but not quite the same - that Bunclody were advised to offer a replay, because there was a chance any full hearing might turn out the way it did. The assumption was that Fethard would accept that offer. But that Bunclody decided not to make that offer, for fear it would be an admission on their part that the referee did actually get things wrong, and that this would end up going against them.
I see it's official now anyway. There's a statement on the Wexford GAA website.
I can't see Bunclody not appealing it, no matter how strong the video evidence is, because they'll be looking for some flaw in procedures or some other technical point anyway. Could drag on a long time if it goes all the way to the DRA, and as you point out, that means championship unlikely to be finished in time for Leinster." What would be their grounds for an appeal? Apparently their own stats man knew what the real score was?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13988 - 15/10/2024 09:17:10
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Replying To Viking66: "What would be their grounds for an appeal? Apparently their own stats man knew what the real score was?" I don't think they have grounds for much of an appeal - but if that Twitter report is the genuine reply from the referee then they do have something to appeal on. It's a bit of a mess really and it's not going to help any of the remaining teams in the championship. The Rathnure V Alley semi final goes ahead as planned on Saturday but the 2nd semi-final is now postponed.
But Bunclody have the right to appeal - the referees report reported that the game was a draw so I am assuming that is what they are basing it on.
MyOhMi (Wexford) - Posts: 160 - 15/10/2024 10:31:56
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Replying To alwaysasub: "Yes i thought that very strange. First would question how they came to obtain the referees report, shouldnt be made available for social media. Anyways its out there now but must have looked clear over the bar when they went against his him, especially on a video evidence which different angles can look different." Not the refs report but it would appear to be a clarification letter to the CCC
To whom that it concerns,
I am replying to the request for clarification of facts that I had already sent in on my match report in relation to the intermediate Hurling championship Quarter Final between Halfway House Bunclody and St Mogues Fethard in Bellefield Enniscorty,
What again in my Opinion in the match Report is Fact.
So here is what I have to add for information is,
Full time score was , St Mogues Fethard: 1-21 Halfway House Bunclody 2-18.
After Extra time score: St Mogues Fethard 1-27 Halfway House Bunclody 3-21.
After penalty shots:
St Mogues Fethard 3-27 Halfway House Bunclody 6-21.
You did request that I give you the score for half time in Extra time, I don't recall what that was and I never in all my years refereeing do record that I either Hurling or Football as the match reports do not require that to be recorded.
However I have a feeling that I can confirm that where I do think that both whoever else did think that the score that I sent in on my report was not right was because in the first half of Extra time that I The Referee cancelled out a point that was Flagged by the umpire as a point to St Mogues Fethard as I the Referee seen as wide and as of rule, it is my right as Referee to over rule such decision and that is what I had done at that time.
On several occasions whoever was doing the score board at the venue had added to confusion by having the score board wrong.
That is all I have to add, I do hope that what I have Stated as the Referee on the day of above game will clear up any confusion that has happened.
Kindly David Jenkins Wexford GAA Referee.
He is correct in his rights as a refere to decided on if it was a score or not however best practice of consulting with the umpire and making it clear once tge umpire raised the flag that he believed it was wide clearly was not followed in this case. This is not as bad as the mistake in the Harriers game where the referee failed in his duty. What the CCC are saying here is that although the ref has the power to overrule the umpire in his duty to keep the score they don't believe what he said and therefore one can only conclude they believe he had some other reason to cancel the score.
So just because the umpire put up a flag it doesn't mean it's a point and I would say there is no way to conclusively prove that they all were points bar the umpire raising the flag
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1901 - 15/10/2024 11:00:13
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Replying To zinny: "Not the refs report but it would appear to be a clarification letter to the CCC
To whom that it concerns,
I am replying to the request for clarification of facts that I had already sent in on my match report in relation to the intermediate Hurling championship Quarter Final between Halfway House Bunclody and St Mogues Fethard in Bellefield Enniscorty,
What again in my Opinion in the match Report is Fact.
So here is what I have to add for information is,
Full time score was , St Mogues Fethard: 1-21 Halfway House Bunclody 2-18.
After Extra time score: St Mogues Fethard 1-27 Halfway House Bunclody 3-21.
After penalty shots:
St Mogues Fethard 3-27 Halfway House Bunclody 6-21.
You did request that I give you the score for half time in Extra time, I don't recall what that was and I never in all my years refereeing do record that I either Hurling or Football as the match reports do not require that to be recorded.
However I have a feeling that I can confirm that where I do think that both whoever else did think that the score that I sent in on my report was not right was because in the first half of Extra time that I The Referee cancelled out a point that was Flagged by the umpire as a point to St Mogues Fethard as I the Referee seen as wide and as of rule, it is my right as Referee to over rule such decision and that is what I had done at that time.
On several occasions whoever was doing the score board at the venue had added to confusion by having the score board wrong.
That is all I have to add, I do hope that what I have Stated as the Referee on the day of above game will clear up any confusion that has happened.
Kindly David Jenkins Wexford GAA Referee.
He is correct in his rights as a refere to decided on if it was a score or not however best practice of consulting with the umpire and making it clear once tge umpire raised the flag that he believed it was wide clearly was not followed in this case. This is not as bad as the mistake in the Harriers game where the referee failed in his duty. What the CCC are saying here is that although the ref has the power to overrule the umpire in his duty to keep the score they don't believe what he said and therefore one can only conclude they believe he had some other reason to cancel the score.
So just because the umpire put up a flag it doesn't mean it's a point and I would say there is no way to conclusively prove that they all were points bar the umpire raising the flag" Umpires are meant to cross the flags if a score is disallowed, wasn't sure if only for a goal but any score the rule seems to say - https://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/match-officials/umpires. I can only assume this did not happen going on the local media reports and general confusion. That's another serious enough refereeing error if that's the case.
Leaking the referee's report to the media isn't a good look. Have the local referees association commented at all yet?
Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 303 - 15/10/2024 12:28:10
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Replying To Timbertony: "Umpires are meant to cross the flags if a score is disallowed, wasn't sure if only for a goal but any score the rule seems to say - https://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/match-officials/umpires. I can only assume this did not happen going on the local media reports and general confusion. That's another serious enough refereeing error if that's the case.
Leaking the referee's report to the media isn't a good look. Have the local referees association commented at all yet?" That would be Brendan martin as he is the 'elected' ref. Gets better.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 730 - 15/10/2024 14:43:13
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Replying To zinny: "Not the refs report but it would appear to be a clarification letter to the CCC
To whom that it concerns,
I am replying to the request for clarification of facts that I had already sent in on my match report in relation to the intermediate Hurling championship Quarter Final between Halfway House Bunclody and St Mogues Fethard in Bellefield Enniscorty,
What again in my Opinion in the match Report is Fact.
So here is what I have to add for information is,
Full time score was , St Mogues Fethard: 1-21 Halfway House Bunclody 2-18.
After Extra time score: St Mogues Fethard 1-27 Halfway House Bunclody 3-21.
After penalty shots:
St Mogues Fethard 3-27 Halfway House Bunclody 6-21.
You did request that I give you the score for half time in Extra time, I don't recall what that was and I never in all my years refereeing do record that I either Hurling or Football as the match reports do not require that to be recorded.
However I have a feeling that I can confirm that where I do think that both whoever else did think that the score that I sent in on my report was not right was because in the first half of Extra time that I The Referee cancelled out a point that was Flagged by the umpire as a point to St Mogues Fethard as I the Referee seen as wide and as of rule, it is my right as Referee to over rule such decision and that is what I had done at that time.
On several occasions whoever was doing the score board at the venue had added to confusion by having the score board wrong.
That is all I have to add, I do hope that what I have Stated as the Referee on the day of above game will clear up any confusion that has happened.
Kindly David Jenkins Wexford GAA Referee.
He is correct in his rights as a refere to decided on if it was a score or not however best practice of consulting with the umpire and making it clear once tge umpire raised the flag that he believed it was wide clearly was not followed in this case. This is not as bad as the mistake in the Harriers game where the referee failed in his duty. What the CCC are saying here is that although the ref has the power to overrule the umpire in his duty to keep the score they don't believe what he said and therefore one can only conclude they believe he had some other reason to cancel the score.
So just because the umpire put up a flag it doesn't mean it's a point and I would say there is no way to conclusively prove that they all were points bar the umpire raising the flag" If an umpire puts up a flag and the referee over rules him, the 2 umpires have to stand under the bar and cross their flags.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13988 - 15/10/2024 14:59:27
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Replying To Timbertony: "Umpires are meant to cross the flags if a score is disallowed, wasn't sure if only for a goal but any score the rule seems to say - https://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/match-officials/umpires. I can only assume this did not happen going on the local media reports and general confusion. That's another serious enough refereeing error if that's the case.
Leaking the referee's report to the media isn't a good look. Have the local referees association commented at all yet?" I notice that the statement from Wexford GAA includes this bit:
Furthermore, during the course of extra time, there was no evidence of any score being cancelled or disallowed by the referee and/or his officials.
Crossing the flags is supposed to happen if a "point" is being disallowed, same as a goal. So I'm taking it to mean that the video didn't show flags being crossed. Which then means that if the referee says he overruled a "point", but he didn't tell the umpires to cross the flags to signify this, he's in a way saying "I didn't perform my duties properly".
No idea how that stuff from the referee ended up with that Sports News Ireland Twitter account, but I believe there are a couple of Wexford lads involved with Sports News Ireland. They'd also be involved with GAA, but wouldn't be County Board officers or members of the CCC. Possible that they got the thing directly from the referee, because I don't see who else would have it.
Haven't heard anything about how other refs feel about the whole thing.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 15/10/2024 15:00:38
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Replying To countyman2022: "That would be Brendan martin as he is the 'elected' ref. Gets better." That comment wasn't up yet when I started writing my last one. Could happen all right that others in the Referee Association might have a copy of what was sent in. Am not pointing the finger directly at Brendan Martin, but yes, possible that one of them could have leaked it either.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 15/10/2024 15:02:52
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I notice that the statement from Wexford GAA includes this bit:
Furthermore, during the course of extra time, there was no evidence of any score being cancelled or disallowed by the referee and/or his officials.
Crossing the flags is supposed to happen if a "point" is being disallowed, same as a goal. So I'm taking it to mean that the video didn't show flags being crossed. Which then means that if the referee says he overruled a "point", but he didn't tell the umpires to cross the flags to signify this, he's in a way saying "I didn't perform my duties properly".
No idea how that stuff from the referee ended up with that Sports News Ireland Twitter account, but I believe there are a couple of Wexford lads involved with Sports News Ireland. They'd also be involved with GAA, but wouldn't be County Board officers or members of the CCC. Possible that they got the thing directly from the referee, because I don't see who else would have it.
Haven't heard anything about how other refs feel about the whole thing." The referee has the power to determine if it was a point or not and he does not need to consult with the umpires. The crossing of the flags relate to the umpires and their duties in respect to their decisions. There is a disconnect in the rules - the referee has the duty to keep the score, the power to overrule the umpire but in doing that he is not obliged to consult with the umpire or tell them to overrule their decision and therefore cross the flags. Of course that may be what should be intended but its not what is written
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1901 - 15/10/2024 16:16:47
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I notice that the statement from Wexford GAA includes this bit:
Furthermore, during the course of extra time, there was no evidence of any score being cancelled or disallowed by the referee and/or his officials.
Crossing the flags is supposed to happen if a "point" is being disallowed, same as a goal. So I'm taking it to mean that the video didn't show flags being crossed. Which then means that if the referee says he overruled a "point", but he didn't tell the umpires to cross the flags to signify this, he's in a way saying "I didn't perform my duties properly".
No idea how that stuff from the referee ended up with that Sports News Ireland Twitter account, but I believe there are a couple of Wexford lads involved with Sports News Ireland. They'd also be involved with GAA, but wouldn't be County Board officers or members of the CCC. Possible that they got the thing directly from the referee, because I don't see who else would have it.
Haven't heard anything about how other refs feel about the whole thing." You would imagine Seamus Howlin position under threat? a number of high profile mishaps the last number of weeks. Cant say they are fair on players?
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 730 - 15/10/2024 16:23:49
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Replying To countyman2022: " Replying To Pikeman96: "I notice that the statement from Wexford GAA includes this bit:
Furthermore, during the course of extra time, there was no evidence of any score being cancelled or disallowed by the referee and/or his officials.
Crossing the flags is supposed to happen if a "point" is being disallowed, same as a goal. So I'm taking it to mean that the video didn't show flags being crossed. Which then means that if the referee says he overruled a "point", but he didn't tell the umpires to cross the flags to signify this, he's in a way saying "I didn't perform my duties properly".
No idea how that stuff from the referee ended up with that Sports News Ireland Twitter account, but I believe there are a couple of Wexford lads involved with Sports News Ireland. They'd also be involved with GAA, but wouldn't be County Board officers or members of the CCC. Possible that they got the thing directly from the referee, because I don't see who else would have it.
Haven't heard anything about how other refs feel about the whole thing." You would imagine Seamus Howlin position under threat? a number of high profile mishaps the last number of weeks. Cant say they are fair on players?"
MyOhMi (Wexford) - Posts: 160 - 15/10/2024 16:51:17
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