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I must say I am worried about the position of the game on a number of fronts and would be very interested to hear others opinions and suggestions for progression/solutions.
Currently in Hurling we have 2 provisional championships dominated by 2 teams. Kilkenny have won 5 in a row in Leinster and Limerick have the same vice like grip in Munster with 5 in row also.
We had 2 underwhelming Quarter Finals this weekend (bar a late flurry from the Dubs once was the game was already lost) which were also poorly attended (30k and probably most of those from Cork alone)
Were it not for a Cork revival this year we could have been heading into the exact same Semi final pairings for the 3rd year running.
The structure isn't correct with the 2 Joe McDonagh teams going into the prelim QF. While I am in some way glad Galway exited the championship early this year (in the hope it sparks the internal review needed to help long term progression) what good is sending Offaly and Laois with only a weeks break to suddenly be jettisoned into the Senior championship? The development of the likes of Offaly, Antrim, Carlow, Kerry, Kildare etc is probably the most important thing long term to the overall development of the game. But this to me is not the correct way to do it. Offaly were 15 points down to Cork and only managed to make it slightly respectable with 2 stoppage time goals. And Laois lost by 12 to Wexford. (last year Tipp won their prelim QF by 32 points!)
I would rather the Joe McDonagh was played later in the year with the final either taking place at Croke Park before the senior Final (now that the minor game has gone) or at least before one of the 2 semi finals. The prize for winning the Joe McDonagh is the promotion the following year and give the game the stage it deserves alongside a senior showpiece game. Otherwise if the same format continues they have to be given at least 2 weeks break after winning or losing the final before taking part in the prelim QF.
I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball.
Looking forward to the rest of the year as a neutral looking on, I think yet another Limerick KK final would be a disaster. I have nothing against either county but I am really praying one or both Clare Cork make the final to freshen things up.
Its just feels like a disappointing year at Senior when the reality is there are only 4 competitive teams.
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 50 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
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Replying To mr305: "I must say I am worried about the position of the game on a number of fronts and would be very interested to hear others opinions and suggestions for progression/solutions.
Currently in Hurling we have 2 provisional championships dominated by 2 teams. Kilkenny have won 5 in a row in Leinster and Limerick have the same vice like grip in Munster with 5 in row also.
We had 2 underwhelming Quarter Finals this weekend (bar a late flurry from the Dubs once was the game was already lost) which were also poorly attended (30k and probably most of those from Cork alone)
Were it not for a Cork revival this year we could have been heading into the exact same Semi final pairings for the 3rd year running.
The structure isn't correct with the 2 Joe McDonagh teams going into the prelim QF. While I am in some way glad Galway exited the championship early this year (in the hope it sparks the internal review needed to help long term progression) what good is sending Offaly and Laois with only a weeks break to suddenly be jettisoned into the Senior championship? The development of the likes of Offaly, Antrim, Carlow, Kerry, Kildare etc is probably the most important thing long term to the overall development of the game. But this to me is not the correct way to do it. Offaly were 15 points down to Cork and only managed to make it slightly respectable with 2 stoppage time goals. And Laois lost by 12 to Wexford. (last year Tipp won their prelim QF by 32 points!)
I would rather the Joe McDonagh was played later in the year with the final either taking place at Croke Park before the senior Final (now that the minor game has gone) or at least before one of the 2 semi finals. The prize for winning the Joe McDonagh is the promotion the following year and give the game the stage it deserves alongside a senior showpiece game. Otherwise if the same format continues they have to be given at least 2 weeks break after winning or losing the final before taking part in the prelim QF.
I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball.
Looking forward to the rest of the year as a neutral looking on, I think yet another Limerick KK final would be a disaster. I have nothing against either county but I am really praying one or both Clare Cork make the final to freshen things up.
Its just feels like a disappointing year at Senior when the reality is there are only 4 competitive teams." There just seems to be an air of inevitably about the whole championship. Also the fact that so many big Munster games were behind gaago doesn't really help promoting anything I think. There were far too many poor teams this so the standard was low enough at times.
Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2085 - 24/06/2024 13:42:38
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Replying To mr305: "I must say I am worried about the position of the game on a number of fronts and would be very interested to hear others opinions and suggestions for progression/solutions.
Currently in Hurling we have 2 provisional championships dominated by 2 teams. Kilkenny have won 5 in a row in Leinster and Limerick have the same vice like grip in Munster with 5 in row also.
We had 2 underwhelming Quarter Finals this weekend (bar a late flurry from the Dubs once was the game was already lost) which were also poorly attended (30k and probably most of those from Cork alone)
Were it not for a Cork revival this year we could have been heading into the exact same Semi final pairings for the 3rd year running.
The structure isn't correct with the 2 Joe McDonagh teams going into the prelim QF. While I am in some way glad Galway exited the championship early this year (in the hope it sparks the internal review needed to help long term progression) what good is sending Offaly and Laois with only a weeks break to suddenly be jettisoned into the Senior championship? The development of the likes of Offaly, Antrim, Carlow, Kerry, Kildare etc is probably the most important thing long term to the overall development of the game. But this to me is not the correct way to do it. Offaly were 15 points down to Cork and only managed to make it slightly respectable with 2 stoppage time goals. And Laois lost by 12 to Wexford. (last year Tipp won their prelim QF by 32 points!)
I would rather the Joe McDonagh was played later in the year with the final either taking place at Croke Park before the senior Final (now that the minor game has gone) or at least before one of the 2 semi finals. The prize for winning the Joe McDonagh is the promotion the following year and give the game the stage it deserves alongside a senior showpiece game. Otherwise if the same format continues they have to be given at least 2 weeks break after winning or losing the final before taking part in the prelim QF.
I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball.
Looking forward to the rest of the year as a neutral looking on, I think yet another Limerick KK final would be a disaster. I have nothing against either county but I am really praying one or both Clare Cork make the final to freshen things up.
Its just feels like a disappointing year at Senior when the reality is there are only 4 competitive teams." The last 2 years Galway got to the semifinals. The Cork revival had absolutely nothing to do with Galway failing to be there this year.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 24/06/2024 13:56:59
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Replying To Viking66: "The last 2 years Galway got to the semifinals. The Cork revival had absolutely nothing to do with Galway failing to be there this year." Galway don't get to semi final because of bold boys beating them so hurling is finished!
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3131 - 24/06/2024 14:59:41
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I disagree that Cork Clare freshens anything up. We're sick looking at Limerick Clare in Munster round robins and munster finals......nothing fresh about that. Limerick Cork will be fresh, if Cork can live with them. They couldn't at one of the covid finals 2021, and got annihilated. I hate to say it, but the young Biffos were the only fresh thing about hurling in 2024 imo.
Refereeing and punditry around overcarrying and throwing in the modern game of hurling is pathetic. I saw Tyrrell watch Shane O'Donnell take what looked like 25 steps on Saturday before goaling, and not pass a blind bit of notice, or comment on the blatant overcarry at all. There's trackman in golf now, that tells this that and the other about golf shots. Is there not a trackman equivalent out there for hurling, that could count O'Donnell's steps, and bring some sort of fairness into the lives of intercounty defenders.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3875 - 24/06/2024 15:08:18
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If you watched Louth v Cork yesterday in the football in Inniskeen you would be even more worried about the state of football in 2024.
It was scary what was happening.
Cork walked over and back on the half way line handpassing the ball for 6 minutes and Louth with 14 men behind the ball.
The worst GAA match I've ever witnessed.
Past hurler (None) - Posts: 811 - 24/06/2024 15:13:50
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"I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball."
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 47 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
What do you mean by 'hand pass off the hurl'? I can't see how it would eliminate a throw.
I don't like seeing so many handpasses in hurling. Sometimes you can get a team moving the ball up the field with 2, 3 or even 4 consecutive handpasses. Especially when some/a lot of handpasses are actually throws. But it's difficult for the ref to judge. An idea that would reduce hand passes (but not eliminate a thrown ball). You can't make a handpass after you've received the ball from a handpass. Basically, a team can't make consecutive handpasses.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2655 - 24/06/2024 15:54:43
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "I disagree that Cork Clare freshens anything up. We're sick looking at Limerick Clare in Munster round robins and munster finals......nothing fresh about that. Limerick Cork will be fresh, if Cork can live with them. They couldn't at one of the covid finals 2021, and got annihilated. I hate to say it, but the young Biffos were the only fresh thing about hurling in 2024 imo.
Refereeing and punditry around overcarrying and throwing in the modern game of hurling is pathetic. I saw Tyrrell watch Shane O'Donnell take what looked like 25 steps on Saturday before goaling, and not pass a blind bit of notice, or comment on the blatant overcarry at all. There's trackman in golf now, that tells this that and the other about golf shots. Is there not a trackman equivalent out there for hurling, that could count O'Donnell's steps, and bring some sort of fairness into the lives of intercounty defenders." Not sure what O'Donnell was meant to do when the hand holding the ball was been pulled and dragged by O'Hanlan. If theres one thing that would improve the game its getting rid of that grabbing tackle.
Anyway, ironic this tread is about the state of hurling and we're talking about the guy who kept most people watching the game last Saturday awake!
We've had 2 bad weeks. Hopefully we get 2 good semi's. Cant see the Cats taking Limerick in a final. But i dont see Clare do it either. Cork and Limerick will be good. The Rebels celebrated big down at the park a few weeks ago. Limerick will show them no mercy.
Limerick are a once off. We'll be saying in years to come that we were around when they played. I never mind class winning.
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 24/06/2024 17:34:46
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball."
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 47 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
What do you mean by 'hand pass off the hurl'? I can't see how it would eliminate a throw.
I don't like seeing so many handpasses in hurling. Sometimes you can get a team moving the ball up the field with 2, 3 or even 4 consecutive handpasses. Especially when some/a lot of handpasses are actually throws. But it's difficult for the ref to judge. An idea that would reduce hand passes (but not eliminate a thrown ball). You can't make a handpass after you've received the ball from a handpass. Basically, a team can't make consecutive handpasses." The hand pass is a hugely important part of the modern game as teams are incredibly fit and because of that space is reduced and there is more engagement physically. You need players to be able to hand pass the ball when being tackled by at times 1 2 or 3 different opposition players. Without the handpass being allowed you'd end up with way more "rucks" and slowing the game down massively
daveboy (Limerick) - Posts: 1197 - 24/06/2024 21:16:08
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Replying To daveboy: " Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball."
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 47 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
What do you mean by 'hand pass off the hurl'? I can't see how it would eliminate a throw.
I don't like seeing so many handpasses in hurling. Sometimes you can get a team moving the ball up the field with 2, 3 or even 4 consecutive handpasses. Especially when some/a lot of handpasses are actually throws. But it's difficult for the ref to judge. An idea that would reduce hand passes (but not eliminate a thrown ball). You can't make a handpass after you've received the ball from a handpass. Basically, a team can't make consecutive handpasses." The hand pass is a hugely important part of the modern game as teams are incredibly fit and because of that space is reduced and there is more engagement physically. You need players to be able to hand pass the ball when being tackled by at times 1 2 or 3 different opposition players. Without the handpass being allowed you'd end up with way more "rucks" and slowing the game down massively"
ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 24/06/2024 23:14:06
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Replying To daveboy: " Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball."
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 47 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
What do you mean by 'hand pass off the hurl'? I can't see how it would eliminate a throw.
I don't like seeing so many handpasses in hurling. Sometimes you can get a team moving the ball up the field with 2, 3 or even 4 consecutive handpasses. Especially when some/a lot of handpasses are actually throws. But it's difficult for the ref to judge. An idea that would reduce hand passes (but not eliminate a thrown ball). You can't make a handpass after you've received the ball from a handpass. Basically, a team can't make consecutive handpasses." The hand pass is a hugely important part of the modern game as teams are incredibly fit and because of that space is reduced and there is more engagement physically. You need players to be able to hand pass the ball when being tackled by at times 1 2 or 3 different opposition players. Without the handpass being allowed you'd end up with way more "rucks" and slowing the game down massively"
I never suggested be the handpass shouldn't be allowed, just curtailed. With regards to 'massively' slowing the game down, and 'way more' rucks, I think you're wrong. Players and tactics will adapt. Anyway, something has to be done. And any new ideas or proposed changes would be trialed before being implemented .
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2655 - 25/06/2024 08:21:41
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Replying To mr305: "I must say I am worried about the position of the game on a number of fronts and would be very interested to hear others opinions and suggestions for progression/solutions.
Currently in Hurling we have 2 provisional championships dominated by 2 teams. Kilkenny have won 5 in a row in Leinster and Limerick have the same vice like grip in Munster with 5 in row also.
We had 2 underwhelming Quarter Finals this weekend (bar a late flurry from the Dubs once was the game was already lost) which were also poorly attended (30k and probably most of those from Cork alone)
Were it not for a Cork revival this year we could have been heading into the exact same Semi final pairings for the 3rd year running.
The structure isn't correct with the 2 Joe McDonagh teams going into the prelim QF. While I am in some way glad Galway exited the championship early this year (in the hope it sparks the internal review needed to help long term progression) what good is sending Offaly and Laois with only a weeks break to suddenly be jettisoned into the Senior championship? The development of the likes of Offaly, Antrim, Carlow, Kerry, Kildare etc is probably the most important thing long term to the overall development of the game. But this to me is not the correct way to do it. Offaly were 15 points down to Cork and only managed to make it slightly respectable with 2 stoppage time goals. And Laois lost by 12 to Wexford. (last year Tipp won their prelim QF by 32 points!)
I would rather the Joe McDonagh was played later in the year with the final either taking place at Croke Park before the senior Final (now that the minor game has gone) or at least before one of the 2 semi finals. The prize for winning the Joe McDonagh is the promotion the following year and give the game the stage it deserves alongside a senior showpiece game. Otherwise if the same format continues they have to be given at least 2 weeks break after winning or losing the final before taking part in the prelim QF.
I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball.
Looking forward to the rest of the year as a neutral looking on, I think yet another Limerick KK final would be a disaster. I have nothing against either county but I am really praying one or both Clare Cork make the final to freshen things up.
Its just feels like a disappointing year at Senior when the reality is there are only 4 competitive teams." Sorry for being picky, but Limerick have won 6 in a row in Munster.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4467 - 25/06/2024 08:21:43
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Replying To ZUL10: " Replying To daveboy: "[quote=Cockney_Cat: ""I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball."
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 47 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
What do you mean by 'hand pass off the hurl'? I can't see how it would eliminate a throw.
I don't like seeing so many handpasses in hurling. Sometimes you can get a team moving the ball up the field with 2, 3 or even 4 consecutive handpasses. Especially when some/a lot of handpasses are actually throws. But it's difficult for the ref to judge. An idea that would reduce hand passes (but not eliminate a thrown ball). You can't make a handpass after you've received the ball from a handpass. Basically, a team can't make consecutive handpasses." The hand pass is a hugely important part of the modern game as teams are incredibly fit and because of that space is reduced and there is more engagement physically. You need players to be able to hand pass the ball when being tackled by at times 1 2 or 3 different opposition players. Without the handpass being allowed you'd end up with way more "rucks" and slowing the game down massively"
The game has changed. 15 Players don't just hold their positions any more. Haven't since the 90s really.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 25/06/2024 09:27:15
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Hand pass off the hurl well worth considering, instantly means it's a handpass
Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1921 - 25/06/2024 10:34:47
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Replying To daveboy: " Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball."
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 47 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
What do you mean by 'hand pass off the hurl'? I can't see how it would eliminate a throw.
I don't like seeing so many handpasses in hurling. Sometimes you can get a team moving the ball up the field with 2, 3 or even 4 consecutive handpasses. Especially when some/a lot of handpasses are actually throws. But it's difficult for the ref to judge. An idea that would reduce hand passes (but not eliminate a thrown ball). You can't make a handpass after you've received the ball from a handpass. Basically, a team can't make consecutive handpasses." The hand pass is a hugely important part of the modern game as teams are incredibly fit and because of that space is reduced and there is more engagement physically. You need players to be able to hand pass the ball when being tackled by at times 1 2 or 3 different opposition players. Without the handpass being allowed you'd end up with way more "rucks" and slowing the game down massively"
Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1921 - 25/06/2024 10:35:51
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: " Replying To daveboy: "[quote=Cockney_Cat: ""I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball."
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 47 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
What do you mean by 'hand pass off the hurl'? I can't see how it would eliminate a throw.
I don't like seeing so many handpasses in hurling. Sometimes you can get a team moving the ball up the field with 2, 3 or even 4 consecutive handpasses. Especially when some/a lot of handpasses are actually throws. But it's difficult for the ref to judge. An idea that would reduce hand passes (but not eliminate a thrown ball). You can't make a handpass after you've received the ball from a handpass. Basically, a team can't make consecutive handpasses." The hand pass is a hugely important part of the modern game as teams are incredibly fit and because of that space is reduced and there is more engagement physically. You need players to be able to hand pass the ball when being tackled by at times 1 2 or 3 different opposition players. Without the handpass being allowed you'd end up with way more "rucks" and slowing the game down massively"
I never suggested be the handpass shouldn't be allowed, just curtailed. With regards to 'massively' slowing the game down, and 'way more' rucks, I think you're wrong. Players and tactics will adapt. Anyway, something has to be done. And any new ideas or proposed changes would be trialed before being implemented ."]There was a trial at Freshers hurling last year. There were less rucks!
ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 25/06/2024 15:56:33
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Replying To Claretandblue: " Replying To daveboy: "[quote=Cockney_Cat: ""I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball."
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 47 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
What do you mean by 'hand pass off the hurl'? I can't see how it would eliminate a throw.
I don't like seeing so many handpasses in hurling. Sometimes you can get a team moving the ball up the field with 2, 3 or even 4 consecutive handpasses. Especially when some/a lot of handpasses are actually throws. But it's difficult for the ref to judge. An idea that would reduce hand passes (but not eliminate a thrown ball). You can't make a handpass after you've received the ball from a handpass. Basically, a team can't make consecutive handpasses." The hand pass is a hugely important part of the modern game as teams are incredibly fit and because of that space is reduced and there is more engagement physically. You need players to be able to hand pass the ball when being tackled by at times 1 2 or 3 different opposition players. Without the handpass being allowed you'd end up with way more "rucks" and slowing the game down massively"
Anyone that believes at senior inter County standard that reducing the hand pass options will not slow down the game for me needs to watch more matches in the flesh .
I've watched matches since the 80s. Ground hurling prevailed and my god it was woeful fare for a long long time. Striking was poor. The rucks were everywhere and the ball moved slowly compared to now. People looking to the past far too fondly.
daveboy (Limerick) - Posts: 1197 - 25/06/2024 17:57:30
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Replying To daveboy: " Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""I am hesitant to throw in the handpass into this discussion but I may as well throw it in while I am at it. What would people think about making it only possible to hand pass off the hurl? This would instantly eliminate a throw ball."
mr305 (Galway) - Posts: 47 - 24/06/2024 11:44:35
What do you mean by 'hand pass off the hurl'? I can't see how it would eliminate a throw.
I don't like seeing so many handpasses in hurling. Sometimes you can get a team moving the ball up the field with 2, 3 or even 4 consecutive handpasses. Especially when some/a lot of handpasses are actually throws. But it's difficult for the ref to judge. An idea that would reduce hand passes (but not eliminate a thrown ball). You can't make a handpass after you've received the ball from a handpass. Basically, a team can't make consecutive handpasses." The hand pass is a hugely important part of the modern game as teams are incredibly fit and because of that space is reduced and there is more engagement physically. You need players to be able to hand pass the ball when being tackled by at times 1 2 or 3 different opposition players. Without the handpass being allowed you'd end up with way more "rucks" and slowing the game down massively"
midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 583 - 25/06/2024 19:48:28
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Straight off with this format the best team are not necessarily going to the All-Ireland series. So that answers your question about the quality and repetition of those games. With the old system all the provinces went in together in the qualifiers creating a better chance for the strongest and best to advance.
I think the hand pass is a bit more complicated but its execution to meet the legal requirement is not. What is the question is it's over use at the expense of stick work that is the foundation of the game. Rucks and foul play,holding etc. with no room to swing the stick leaves only an option to throw it or push it out. Not room to do a legal hand pass either. In fact if you watch players in open play they execute the hand pass proper. The solution. Third man in a foul. If three players arrive at the ball the same time once the initial tackle is made the third or all others in, required to back off the player being challenged. Some thing needs to be done so hurling breaks out. I know I can hear too hard to administrate but there is plenty all ready in that category. Still a great game but needs adjustments. For those who don't like change I would say we have come a long ways from 25 players. Peeky caps, a cigarette stick from the corner of the mouth, a licence to take the goalie out and playing with a stick with a knob on the end. Change has been happening since the first ball struck a bunch of rags tied up. Upwards and onwards for this great sport.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2868 - 25/06/2024 22:41:13
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A big reason why the handpass is used more is to always work the ball into the position where the best player is in place to deliver a 70/30 ball into the forward making the run. It takes years to perfect. It takes enormous levels of skill and courage to execute. Limerick for years used to launch ball down on the FF line with rhe raucous roar of the crowd and fist pump from the full back line only for that same ball to be hoovered up by the opposition. I watched it for 30 odd years and no ultimate success. The development of a playing style to combat the physicality or that awesome kk team of the 00s subsequent Tipp team 10-16 and Gakway 2017 was why Limerick needed to do something different. They worked for 2 years developing that plan and then worked on the S&C but all the time the stick and ball was first and always first.
daveboy (Limerick) - Posts: 1197 - 25/06/2024 23:08:24
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