National Forum

Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Both are needed. The new rules to encourage more attacking football than all this safe lateral passing. The championship needs to have jeopardy. That bit of bite. A lot of counties have no real jeopardy in the provincial championship. The group stage then has no real jeopardy either."
I agree both are needed - I think you said it right; that bit of bite is missing in the earlier rounds. I think bringing back that bit of bite would help the game as much as any rule change.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 21/11/2024 11:09:33    2580546

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My Swiss System/URC-style AI League-Championship has characteristics of Nations League A & B - both 16 teams, with '4 groups of 4', prior to a 'top 8' playing for the major prize and tier-crossover/lower tier ties for lesser prizes.

Maybe the existing AIC group stage could adopt some of these elements, like:

Tier 1 'top 2s' to Sam KO QFs
Tier 1 '3rds' v Tier 2 '1sts' to Shield QFs (all 8 go/stay up)
Tier 1 '4ths' relegated
Tier 2 '2nds v 3rds' in Tailteann Cup QFs (all 8 stay down)

Again, 24 get a KO tie but there is jeopardy given a 'three-tier' AIC.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 21/11/2024 15:26:25    2580603

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The Allianz Football League has a consistent format. So much so that the league has been elevated to providing qualifiers. The hurling championship has a consistent format now, bar the covid years.
The old Christy Ring format is tried and tested. Kerry had the format this year. Down have had that format as well.
I saw some mention that provincial finalists will have home advantage in Round 1. No word on any particular advantage for winning a provincial title. Do the GAA not want to offer an incentive for Dublin to win a Leinster final?!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8292 - 21/11/2024 18:06:29    2580632

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Allianz Football League has a consistent format. So much so that the league has been elevated to providing qualifiers. The hurling championship has a consistent format now, bar the covid years.
The old Christy Ring format is tried and tested. Kerry had the format this year. Down have had that format as well.
I saw some mention that provincial finalists will have home advantage in Round 1. No word on any particular advantage for winning a provincial title. Do the GAA not want to offer an incentive for Dublin to win a Leinster final?!"
Especially now that Paul Flynn thinks the Dubs will be challenged in Leinster following Brian Fenton's departure. I'm not convinced.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 21/11/2024 19:31:26    2580642

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Allianz Football League has a consistent format. So much so that the league has been elevated to providing qualifiers. The hurling championship has a consistent format now, bar the covid years.
The old Christy Ring format is tried and tested. Kerry had the format this year. Down have had that format as well.
I saw some mention that provincial finalists will have home advantage in Round 1. No word on any particular advantage for winning a provincial title. Do the GAA not want to offer an incentive for Dublin to win a Leinster final?!"
Maybe seeing as crowds at Dublin games in Croke Park were way down this year.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1960 - 21/11/2024 20:13:12    2580650

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Replying To omahant:  "Especially now that Paul Flynn thinks the Dubs will be challenged in Leinster following Brian Fenton's departure. I'm not convinced."
Their victory margins will come down a bit.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1960 - 22/11/2024 09:14:39    2580678

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Maybe seeing as crowds at Dublin games in Croke Park were way down this year."
They've been dwindling for some time now. Leinster became uncompetitive due to the amount of money pumped into Dublin. It wasn't until it became obvious at national level that it was toned down a little. For this reason I'd also expect Leinster to become a bit more competitive.

We need to even the playing field financially; give all counties similar backroom support and we'll see more even competition on the pitch.

Once there's a decent competition on the pitch with meaningful games the crowds will return.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 22/11/2024 09:35:45    2580679

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Replying To brianb:  "They've been dwindling for some time now. Leinster became uncompetitive due to the amount of money pumped into Dublin. It wasn't until it became obvious at national level that it was toned down a little. For this reason I'd also expect Leinster to become a bit more competitive.

We need to even the playing field financially; give all counties similar backroom support and we'll see more even competition on the pitch.

Once there's a decent competition on the pitch with meaningful games the crowds will return."
How would you share a centrally-funded national pie?
Give each county an equal share per head of playing population, or a progressive sliding scale skewed towards giving small counties a leg up? Given its population, Dubs should get more - but how much more?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 22/11/2024 13:13:58    2580709

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Replying To omahant:  "How would you share a centrally-funded national pie?
Give each county an equal share per head of playing population, or a progressive sliding scale skewed towards giving small counties a leg up? Given its population, Dubs should get more - but how much more?"
We probably need a different thread here - I think there are two levels. The local level and the county level.

At the local level funding should be focused at the playing population however once we get to the county level we need a more even playing field.

At the county level we want to get a more competitive competition. Each county squad size is more or less the same yet some counties can spend millions in team preparation yet others get by on a fraction of it.

We should agree what is essential to team preparation in the modern game at inter county level, be it video analysts, gps trackers, provision of nutrition and so on. At that level keep things even and we'd see the gap narrow.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 22/11/2024 13:37:30    2580716

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Replying To brianb:  "We probably need a different thread here - I think there are two levels. The local level and the county level.

At the local level funding should be focused at the playing population however once we get to the county level we need a more even playing field.

At the county level we want to get a more competitive competition. Each county squad size is more or less the same yet some counties can spend millions in team preparation yet others get by on a fraction of it.

We should agree what is essential to team preparation in the modern game at inter county level, be it video analysts, gps trackers, provision of nutrition and so on. At that level keep things even and we'd see the gap narrow."
I think you are right, re your last paragraph. In practice, it would take some time - and it's hard to bridge Dublin and Leitrim with the former's "general" population 40x the latter's.

A total non starter, but would be a "quick fix" -
8 to 12 "franchise" team units (like T20 cricket), equally balanced and with a transfer system - dreamland for sure.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 22/11/2024 17:00:39    2580749

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Financial fairness is a different matter. I'll sidestep that one! For now anyway!
I'm not a fan of neutral venues. All Munster counties have a home and away agreement. It works fine.
The qualifiers used to give home advantage by luck of the draw. We'll find out next year what Jarlath and Co are planning. Some reports suggest home advantage for provincial finalists in round 1.
The GAA have moved a bit more in the direction of rewarding with home advantage in recent years. If Round 1 is home advantage for provincial finalists, possibly all other rounds can have home advantage through a home and away agreement. If counties don't have a current arrangement, when they are paired just toss a coin to see who starts the new agreement with a home game.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8292 - 22/11/2024 18:39:30    2580759

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Financial fairness is a different matter. I'll sidestep that one! For now anyway!
I'm not a fan of neutral venues. All Munster counties have a home and away agreement. It works fine.
The qualifiers used to give home advantage by luck of the draw. We'll find out next year what Jarlath and Co are planning. Some reports suggest home advantage for provincial finalists in round 1.
The GAA have moved a bit more in the direction of rewarding with home advantage in recent years. If Round 1 is home advantage for provincial finalists, possibly all other rounds can have home advantage through a home and away agreement. If counties don't have a current arrangement, when they are paired just toss a coin to see who starts the new agreement with a home game."
I agree on home advantage. It can be won, but if not won a home and away agreement between all teams is a great idea.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 22/11/2024 20:54:00    2580769

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Jarlath Burn's favoured Down and old Christy Ring type format seems to favourite. In the old qualifier system, provincial finals were like Round 2A where winners would go on to quarter finals. The runners up and Qualifier Round 3 winners contested Q4, which was essentially a preliminary quarter final in today's wording. Between provincial and All Ireland they are essentially putting in a triple elimination format. Strike 3 and you are out Derry!!!
Whether the triple elimination format will be the ultimate solution long term will remain to be seen. Hurling has a strong provincial tiered system. There are aspects of that that can apply to football.
All Ireland football quarter finals are one of the biggest weekends of the year. Hurling provincial finals are played on Saturday and Sunday. The 4 football provincial finals could be played on the same weekend, so that the 4 runners up would play 2 weeks later and the 4 champions would play 4 weeks later.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8292 - 23/11/2024 09:08:52    2580789

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legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8287 - 23/11/2024 09:08:52

I also like in the "Christy Ring" as you call it - any team has to won '2 of 3' rounds (1, 2A/2B, 3) to advance to the AI QFs - a levelling of sorts of the playing field.

If implemented, I'd prefer the '4 x 4ths' relegated with the Tailteann 'SF 4' promoted.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 23/11/2024 17:19:52    2580844

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Correction to above - '4 lowest league-ranked of 8 non-QFists' relegated.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 23/11/2024 17:34:13    2580846

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Or, better maybe -
'2 of 8 lowest league-based non-QFists' relegated
'Tailteann Finalists' promoted

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 23/11/2024 17:45:15    2580850

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Replying To omahant:  "Or, better maybe -
'2 of 8 lowest league-based non-QFists' relegated
'Tailteann Finalists' promoted"
The old Christy Ring format carried the threat of relegation as well. The McDonagh Cup in someways is a shared Tier 2 between Munster and Leinster.
In football, it is possible to have a shared Tier 2 between Leinster and Ulster. Also possible for a separate shared Tier 2 between Connacht and Munster.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8292 - 23/11/2024 21:01:08    2580904

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The old Christy Ring format carried the threat of relegation as well. The McDonagh Cup in someways is a shared Tier 2 between Munster and Leinster.
In football, it is possible to have a shared Tier 2 between Leinster and Ulster. Also possible for a separate shared Tier 2 between Connacht and Munster."
My Swiss System has a shared League Tier 1/2 link via the 2nd-ranked (of 3 ranks) AIC, the Shield.
QFs could be Tier 1 '3rd 4' hosting 4 PQF winners, following PQFs (Tier 2 '1st 4' hosting Tier 1 '4th 4'.
That 'QF 8' play Tier 1 the next year (promoting 0-4 teams).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 24/11/2024 03:41:18    2580932

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Replying To omahant:  "My Swiss System has a shared League Tier 1/2 link via the 2nd-ranked (of 3 ranks) AIC, the Shield.
QFs could be Tier 1 '3rd 4' hosting 4 PQF winners, following PQFs (Tier 2 '1st 4' hosting Tier 1 '4th 4'.
That 'QF 8' play Tier 1 the next year (promoting 0-4 teams)."
Cavan and Leitrim have had great foresight and vision in embracing the Swiss model format. I don't think the GAA are ready to embrace it at intercounty level.
MUNSTER: 1 Kerry, 2 Cork, 3 Clare, 4 Limerick.
CONNACHT: 1 Galway, 2 Mayo, 3 Roscommon, 4 Sligo.
CONNACHT & MUNSTER TIER 2: 1 Leitrim, 2 Tipperary, 3 London, 4 Waterford.
Kerry v Cork - Munster final. Galway v Mayo - Connacht final. Leitrim v Tipperary - Connacht & Munster Tier 2 final.
Provincial winners direct to quarter-finals. Provincial runners-up into preliminary quarter-finals. Tier 2 winner e.g. Leitrim promoted to their province. Sligo relegated.
Debatable-1: when the Tier 2 runner up is from the other province e.g. Tipperary, Tipperary could take on Limerick in a promotion relegation playoff.
Debatable-2: Leitrim could take on a Leinster & Ulster Tier 2 winner (e.g. Antrim, Wexford, Longford or Carlow) in the Tailteann Cup final, with the Tailteann Cup winner given a home preliminary quarter-final against a provincial runner up.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8292 - 24/11/2024 07:53:48    2580934

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