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The Munster hurling championship is the gold standard. Competitive games. Jeopardy. Big crowds.
If Gaelic football wants some of that, a provincial group tiered system is the way to go.
LEINSTER
2 groups of 4
ULSTER
2 groups of 4
LEINSTER & ULSTER TIER 2
1 group of 4
CONNACHT
1 group of 4
MUNSTER
1 group of 4
CONNACHT & MUNSTER TIER 2
1 group of 4
New York arguably could be guaranteed a home Preliminary Quarter-final against a provincial runner-up on a 4 year rotation around the provinces.
The Leinster and Ulster losing semi-finalists could enter an All-Ireland playoff to join the preliminary quarter-finals.
Provincial Tier 2 winners should be promoted to their province.
The All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-finals consisting of 4 provincial runners-up, 2 playoff winners, Tailteann winner and New York. The winners going on to take on the 4 provincial winners in the quarter-finals.
The All-Ireland playoff losers, provincial third placed teams and the Tier 2 winners could contest the Tailteann Cup. The Tailteann Cup winner could be guaranteed an All-Ireland place in the following year.
All remaining teams in Third Tier Cup. The winner of that guaranteed a Tailteann place in the following year.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 23/07/2024 08:40:49
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Munster hurling championship is the gold standard. Competitive games. Jeopardy. Big crowds.
If Gaelic football wants some of that, a provincial group tiered system is the way to go.
LEINSTER
2 groups of 4
ULSTER
2 groups of 4
LEINSTER & ULSTER TIER 2
1 group of 4
CONNACHT
1 group of 4
MUNSTER
1 group of 4
CONNACHT & MUNSTER TIER 2
1 group of 4
New York arguably could be guaranteed a home Preliminary Quarter-final against a provincial runner-up on a 4 year rotation around the provinces.
The Leinster and Ulster losing semi-finalists could enter an All-Ireland playoff to join the preliminary quarter-finals.
Provincial Tier 2 winners should be promoted to their province.
The All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-finals consisting of 4 provincial runners-up, 2 playoff winners, Tailteann winner and New York. The winners going on to take on the 4 provincial winners in the quarter-finals.
The All-Ireland playoff losers, provincial third placed teams and the Tier 2 winners could contest the Tailteann Cup. The Tailteann Cup winner could be guaranteed an All-Ireland place in the following year.
All remaining teams in Third Tier Cup. The winner of that guaranteed a Tailteann place in the following year." This system has all the flaws of the hurling system (biases caused by provincial imbalances, weird promotion relegation dynamics) with none of its secret sauce (games week in week out between potential contenders, capacity for good teams to not make it out of the group).
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 23/07/2024 15:11:00
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I was wondering who would trigger post 900 - now, we know :)
In any sport, if we keep regional rivalries, it would be very hard for the different regions to be balanced - we might get lucky once in a while for a short time - but divergence should be expected over the long run. So, we need to choose - regions, or forced balance?
Regions
Like SHC's two imbalanced "regions", a Munster 5 & the Rest 6, the SFC could have an Ulster 5 & the Rest 6 (latter the stronger, with Kerry, Dublin & Connacht Big 3). The one promoted team could determine if the Rest's 6th or Ulster's 5th could be subject to relegation / replacement.
Forced Balance
Like US sports, two balanced "national" Conferences could be established, each with a mixed quality blend of 16 teams from across the 4 provinces, and with each 16 divided into two "non-US style" tiers.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 23/07/2024 18:52:06
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Replying To Whammo86: "This system has all the flaws of the hurling system (biases caused by provincial imbalances, weird promotion relegation dynamics) with none of its secret sauce (games week in week out between potential contenders, capacity for good teams to not make it out of the group)." My calculations are that the three provincial group games can be every second weekend.
There are provincial imbalances but Waterford and Tipperary are not complaining in hurling. There is respect for a competitive Munster hurling championship.
The Ulster and Connacht provincial group should thrive. Munster should get the best two in the final. Leinster is what it is. If the All-Ireland playoff round pitted Ulster losing semi-finalists against Leinster losing semi-finalists, Ulster might have 4 in the final 12.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 24/07/2024 08:15:03
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I just don't understand why there'd be any appetite for more Provincial fixtures.
I'm taking into account the fact that the round robin games in the All Ireland aren't doing great numbers attendance wise.
As I've pointed out already those round robin is great at producing all the games that aren't interesting and keeping apart the exciting games.
You talk about Provincials needing to be retained so that we have championship standard attendances but the Provincial attendances are in steady decline, the league attendances are trending up is a pretty strong counter to your arguments.
Just because the All Ireland is badly organised because of the lack of jeopardy does not mean that there wouldn't be interest in the top teams going toe for toe week in week out in a well structured format.
Like very quickly I could well believe that an All Ireland championship where we had the top 12 playing each other once would do good numbers. You'd have 66 games, you'd have maybe 3 All Connacht fixtures, could have as many as 10 or 15 Ulster match ups, you'd have Dublin Kerry in a big meaningful match outside a semifinal or final.
Honestly if something like that format couldn't be promoted we should just wind the whole sport up and start again.
You know if you had a competition like that you'd have way better ability to schedule club activities.
That's what's being held back by having to incorporate the current NFL and Provincials.
If the game was being organised today it'd probably look more like this than the Provincial system which was born out of the cost of travel in Ireland of old.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 24/07/2024 15:35:22
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Replying To Whammo86: "I just don't understand why there'd be any appetite for more Provincial fixtures.
I'm taking into account the fact that the round robin games in the All Ireland aren't doing great numbers attendance wise.
As I've pointed out already those round robin is great at producing all the games that aren't interesting and keeping apart the exciting games.
You talk about Provincials needing to be retained so that we have championship standard attendances but the Provincial attendances are in steady decline, the league attendances are trending up is a pretty strong counter to your arguments.
Just because the All Ireland is badly organised because of the lack of jeopardy does not mean that there wouldn't be interest in the top teams going toe for toe week in week out in a well structured format.
Like very quickly I could well believe that an All Ireland championship where we had the top 12 playing each other once would do good numbers. You'd have 66 games, you'd have maybe 3 All Connacht fixtures, could have as many as 10 or 15 Ulster match ups, you'd have Dublin Kerry in a big meaningful match outside a semifinal or final.
Honestly if something like that format couldn't be promoted we should just wind the whole sport up and start again.
You know if you had a competition like that you'd have way better ability to schedule club activities.
That's what's being held back by having to incorporate the current NFL and Provincials.
If the game was being organised today it'd probably look more like this than the Provincial system which was born out of the cost of travel in Ireland of old." The suggested tiered provincial group stage would have the jeopardy of relegation. Only the top two from the provincial groups would advance to the All-Ireland knockouts.
Local rivalries and shorter travel distances are still popular with supporters. Kerry and Cork mightn't meet in the final at the moment because of a lopsided draw. In a group stage, if they are the best two, they will make the final.
A debatable tweak to my earlier structure is that the Tailteann winner from the previous year would take on the lowest league ranked Leinster and Ulster losing semi-finalist in an All-Ireland playoff. The Tailteann winner can have home advantage.
Only two of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon making a Connacht final and the All-Ireland series should be a good battle. Cork and Clare have had good battles in recent years. Ulster counties battling for top 2 in each group should also be fiercely competitive. Leinster is the fly in the ointment. If Leinster structured fixtures in a balanced way, the counties missing out on the top 2 would be given two home games in the following year. Dublin then would have to play in the backyard of two of their opponents. That's as best as they could do really to give the struggling counties a boost.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 24/07/2024 17:26:29
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Whammo 'Top 12' + Legendzxix 'Prov Groups' =
Omahant 'URC Top 16'.
Mine has a national 'Top 16' playing 12 of 15 opponents (as full round robin is too long) and incorporates Prov KO ties (when both teams are top 16 match up) into the 12-match set, leading into the AIC Series.
The 12-match season (before AIC) is like rugby's URC 'four groups of four' 18-match schedule, but less the six intra-group games.
We are all so passionate about defending our own ideas - no wonder the GAA gets no where.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 24/07/2024 21:07:15
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Replying To omahant: "Whammo 'Top 12' + Legendzxix 'Prov Groups' =
Omahant 'URC Top 16'.
Mine has a national 'Top 16' playing 12 of 15 opponents (as full round robin is too long) and incorporates Prov KO ties (when both teams are top 16 match up) into the 12-match set, leading into the AIC Series.
The 12-match season (before AIC) is like rugby's URC 'four groups of four' 18-match schedule, but less the six intra-group games.
We are all so passionate about defending our own ideas - no wonder the GAA gets no where." !!!!!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 24/07/2024 23:17:44
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Amazing the detail posters go into to propose changes. The GAA hierarchy will not get your proposals so isn't it an exercise in futility? VAR, advanced mark, round robin format would be on discussion list for GAA but I doubt if they'll consult Hoganstand. Still… if it makes you happy..,
Ryanteam (Cork) - Posts: 373 - 25/07/2024 00:14:48
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Replying To Ryanteam: "Amazing the detail posters go into to propose changes. The GAA hierarchy will not get your proposals so isn't it an exercise in futility? VAR, advanced mark, round robin format would be on discussion list for GAA but I doubt if they'll consult Hoganstand. Still… if it makes you happy..," Suggestions of mine have gone forward. :-)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 25/07/2024 11:29:11
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Replying To omahant: "Whammo 'Top 12' + Legendzxix 'Prov Groups' =
Omahant 'URC Top 16'.
Mine has a national 'Top 16' playing 12 of 15 opponents (as full round robin is too long) and incorporates Prov KO ties (when both teams are top 16 match up) into the 12-match set, leading into the AIC Series.
The 12-match season (before AIC) is like rugby's URC 'four groups of four' 18-match schedule, but less the six intra-group games.
We are all so passionate about defending our own ideas - no wonder the GAA gets no where." It's not the same format.
You've issues in your structure, what happens if a Provincial champion comes from outside the top 16.
Incorporating provincials and the All Ireland in a sensible manner can cause a huge difference in complexity of the competition.
A top 12 single round robin with 6 going to the playoffs and 2 teams relegated takes 15 words to describe in total and would be very easy for the public to engage with.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 25/07/2024 13:10:54
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Replying To legendzxix: "Suggestions of mine have gone forward. :-)" Good to see you back Leg.
Thought you'd retired after the Armagh result lol.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 25/07/2024 13:47:14
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's not the same format.
You've issues in your structure, what happens if a Provincial champion comes from outside the top 16.
Incorporating provincials and the All Ireland in a sensible manner can cause a huge difference in complexity of the competition.
A top 12 single round robin with 6 going to the playoffs and 2 teams relegated takes 15 words to describe in total and would be very easy for the public to engage with." I've outlined a 12 team round robin previously as well. I think the GAA will want to retain four quarter-finals in Croke Park. The All-Ireland Championship should also set the standard for club championships by being completed over no more than six rounds.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 25/07/2024 14:02:21
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@Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4317 - 25/07/2024 13:10:54 2561480
Yeah, your Top 12 would be a cracker with great matchups. Mine allows 4 more teams at the top table and would have a less intense schedule (debatable if that's desired or not).
Re: Mine and what to do with non-top 16 Prov Champs - admittedly it's inelegant and I've evolved - initially parachuting low Champs into the Tier 1 KO, but as there's no incentive to otherwise do well during the season, I've amended to "they miss out", that is:
Top 8 of 16 to Tier 1 KO (regardless if PChamps incl)
Next 12 (incl Tier 2 top 4) to Tier 2 KO, and
Next 8 (Tier 2 middle 8) to Tier 3 KO.
In the above, an Ulster Champ earns 6 or 8 pts in the table from Prov ties and their position from 12 games determines which KO (if any) they enter.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 25/07/2024 14:24:22
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Replying To legendzxix: "Suggestions of mine have gone forward. :-)" It seems you might have had some influence on '4 groups of 4' - who knows.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 25/07/2024 14:38:16
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Replying To legendzxix: "I've outlined a 12 team round robin previously as well. I think the GAA will want to retain four quarter-finals in Croke Park. The All-Ireland Championship should also set the standard for club championships by being completed over no more than six rounds." I don't see why being completed over 6 rounds should in any way be required of a championship.
6 rounds for club is too short also.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 25/07/2024 17:50:23
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PROVINCIAL ROUND ROBIN + QUALIFIERS
If there is to be a group stage incorporated into the the A.I.C then it maybe more beneficial to actually have the groups at the Provincial stage rather than afterwards
The following is a Provincial R.R structure using the recently completed N.L to determine which teams go where in the draw. The qualifiers are run alongside the Provincial R.R and involve 9 teams in 3 groups of 3 .[8 early round losers in the 4 Provincial Championships + New York] Following the completion of the Provincials and the Qualifiers is the A.I.C [24 teams in straight knock out].
ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
PRE. ROUND------ 2 lowest ranked in N.L. [Loser to Qualifiers]
R.R 2 Groups of 4.
Third in each Group to A.I.C [Last 24]
Top 2 in each group to Semi Finals and Final
LEINSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
PRE. ROUND------ 6 lowest ranked in N.L, [3 losers to Qualifiers]
R.R 2 Groups of 4.
Third in each group to A.I.C [Last 24]
Top 2 in each group to Semi Finals and Final
MUNSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
Q.F.------ 4 lowest ranked in N.L. [2 losers to Qualifiers]
R.R.------ 1 Group of 4.
Third in group to A.I.C. [Last 24]
Top 2------Final
CONNACHT CHAMPIONSHIP
Q.F.------4 lowest ranked in N.L [2 losers + New York to Qualifiers]
R.R ------ 1 Group of 4
Third in Group to A.I.C [Last 24]
Top 2------ Final
QUALIFERS [9 Teams in 3 groups of 3] [1 Home + 1 away game]
Pre. Round loser in Ulster[1]
Pre. Round losers in Leinster [3]
Q.F losers in Munster[2]
Q.F losers in Connacht [2]
New York.
Top 2 in each Group to A.I.C [Last 24]
ALL IRELAND CHAMPIONSHIP [24 Teams]
PLAY OFF ROUND [Last 24]
HOME TEAMS[8]
Leinster Championship S.F. losers [2]
Ulster Championship S.F losers [2]
Best Munster/ Connacht Third in R.R Group based on N.L[1]
Qualifier Group Winners [3]
AWAY TEAMS[8]
Leinster Championship------ Third in R.R Groups [2]
Ulster Championship------Third in R.R Groups [2]
Worst Munster/Connacht Third in R.R Group based on N.L[1]
Qualifier Groups Runners Up [3]
LAST 16 [8 seeded teams------ Provincial Winners and Runners Up]
Provincial Winners [4][Guaranteed home game and can not meet till S.F]
Provincial Runners Up [4] Four ties at neutral venues]
8 Play Off Round Winners.
TAILTEANN CUP
Open to all N.L D3 and D4 teams that fail to progress to A.I.C Last 16.
Winner -----Guaranteed place in respective following years Provincial R.R Group stage.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 62 - 25/07/2024 20:28:26
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't see why being completed over 6 rounds should in any way be required of a championship.
6 rounds for club is too short also." 6 rounds will have dual championships completed in 12 weeks. The league is there for incremental improvement. Championship is championship.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 25/07/2024 21:33:00
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't see why being completed over 6 rounds should in any way be required of a championship.
6 rounds for club is too short also." I suppose the Club Championship should be short so that returning County players are not overly burdened. The Club Only player can get a fuller season via the Club League, while the County player gets more of his/hers via the Inter-County schedule.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 25/07/2024 23:34:36
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Replying To omahant: "I suppose the Club Championship should be short so that returning County players are not overly burdened. The Club Only player can get a fuller season via the Club League, while the County player gets more of his/hers via the Inter-County schedule." The issue though is that the inter county season's footprint is too large.
It's a bloated season, with not lots of excitement to be honest.
It should be reduced overall but the games that are played given more edge.
12 teams making it through to the knockout rounds is too low of a bar.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 26/07/2024 09:34:22
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