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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Pre-2018 Qualifiers with a "twist" to counter Prov imbalance:

Prov SF 16 (2nd chance after SF 16, F 8, Champs 4 Rd)
+ Rd 1 Qual 16 (3rd chance after Rd 1 only, then KO)

Rd 2 Qual 16 (Open Draw, 16 SF & Rd 1 "losers")

Prov F 8

Rd 3 Qual 20 (4 PF losers + 16 Rds 1&2 winners)

Prov Champs 4 Playoff

Rd 4 Qual 12 (2 PChamps losers + 10 Rd 3 winners)

AI QFs (2 unbeaten PChamps + 6 Rd 4 winners)
SFs
F

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 14/07/2024 04:58:23    2558871

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The All-Ireland 16 would most likely be the double elimination format. The Tailteann 16 will suit a straight knockout if all have qualifier shot at the All-Ireland.
It was a bit of a surprise for Meath to be in the Tailteann but that was their lot after Cork lost to Clare in '23. If Meath were knocked in a qualifier by Cork, why would they then struggle to accept that they have fallen short and the Tailteann can offer them a route back?"
That'd be really bizarre though, to have qualifiers that are knock out and then suddenly get to the last 16 again and it's double elimination.

All these formats are confusing lots of elements in ways that make no sense and have bizarre changes in momentum to the season.

The hurling has a championship decoupled from the league so it's a clean start to the competition.

It then goes to a group stage followed by playoff rounds.

It's a much more sensible format which people can relate to and identify with as its common place across sports and other games.

The football season on the other hand. It's not going to be improved by a double elimination last 16 coming straight off the back of the Provincial championships.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 14/07/2024 09:02:02    2558886

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Replying To Whammo86:  "That'd be really bizarre though, to have qualifiers that are knock out and then suddenly get to the last 16 again and it's double elimination.

All these formats are confusing lots of elements in ways that make no sense and have bizarre changes in momentum to the season.

The hurling has a championship decoupled from the league so it's a clean start to the competition.

It then goes to a group stage followed by playoff rounds.

It's a much more sensible format which people can relate to and identify with as its common place across sports and other games.

The football season on the other hand. It's not going to be improved by a double elimination last 16 coming straight off the back of the Provincial championships."
Hurling can have graded Inter County Championships, with Group stages and with promotion and relegation.
Camogie and LGFA the same.

Buy inter Co football can't or the sky might fall in?!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 14/07/2024 11:03:33    2558919

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If you ask someone from Armagh, Galway, Donegal and say louth they would probably tell you this year that the championship structure is fine.
You don't get to win many trophies and the Ulster championship was good this year with Donegal ambushing Derry and a very good final. the connacht final was also very good. Yep Leinster has fallen away badly but there were a few green shoots in Dublin coming back a bit. It's just such pity meath and Kildare are pretty much asleep.

A little tweak to the group games with every team getting two weeks between matches and the first week winners playing each other in the second week and have 8 getting out of the groups and see what that looks like next year.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 780 - 14/07/2024 11:45:29    2558930

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Replying To Whammo86:  "That'd be really bizarre though, to have qualifiers that are knock out and then suddenly get to the last 16 again and it's double elimination.

All these formats are confusing lots of elements in ways that make no sense and have bizarre changes in momentum to the season.

The hurling has a championship decoupled from the league so it's a clean start to the competition.

It then goes to a group stage followed by playoff rounds.

It's a much more sensible format which people can relate to and identify with as its common place across sports and other games.

The football season on the other hand. It's not going to be improved by a double elimination last 16 coming straight off the back of the Provincial championships."
Four groups of four with the top two qualifying or the double elimination format both require six weeks. The double elimination cuts out the dead rubber of a team on 2 wins versus a team without a win.
Knockout qualifiers with a group stage following aesthetically looks better on the surface but it doesn't necessarily mean that the double elimination isn't a better approach.
Football can be decoupled from the league using the tiered provincial group stage approach:
ULSTER
2 groups of 4. Top two to semi-finals. 4th placed teams in relegation playoff if an Ulster team wins the Tailteann.
LEINSTER
2 groups of 4. Top two to semi-finals. 4th placed teams in relegation playoff if a Leinster team wins the Tailteann.
CONNACHT
1 group of 4. Top two to final. 4th placed team relegated if a Connacht team wins the Tailteann.
MUNSTER
1 group of 4. Top two to final. 4th placed team relegated if a Munster team wins the Tailteann.
ALL-IRELAND PRELIMINARY QUARTER-FINALS:
4 provincial runners-up versus 4 Leinster and Ulster losing semi-finalists.
ALL-IRELAND QUARTER-FINALS:
4 provincial winners versus 4 Pre-QF winners.
TAILTEANN CUP
2 groups of 4. Top two to semi-finals.
Tailteann winner promoted to their provincial championship of the following year.
New York a conundrum as always. Possibly New York can travel for a Tailteann Cup quarter-final against the lowest ranked group runner-up or some other suitable arrangement can be agreed upon.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 14/07/2024 12:23:07    2558938

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Hurling can have graded Inter County Championships, with Group stages and with promotion and relegation.
Camogie and LGFA the same.

Buy inter Co football can't or the sky might fall in?!"
Do you actually ever read anything that people write or follow a conversation because you always just put words in people's mouths and argue over things no one is saying.

Nothing wrong with having tiers in football but they have to make sense.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 14/07/2024 13:44:48    2558953

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Hurling can have graded Inter County Championships, with Group stages and with promotion and relegation.
Camogie and LGFA the same.

Buy inter Co football can't or the sky might fall in?!"
Hurling has a tiered championship where teams move up from one grade to another through championship performance only.

Football has 3 different pathways leading into the top championship.

That's the difference, that's why the formats never make sense.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 14/07/2024 13:51:08    2558956

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Four groups of four with the top two qualifying or the double elimination format both require six weeks. The double elimination cuts out the dead rubber of a team on 2 wins versus a team without a win.
Knockout qualifiers with a group stage following aesthetically looks better on the surface but it doesn't necessarily mean that the double elimination isn't a better approach.
Football can be decoupled from the league using the tiered provincial group stage approach:
ULSTER
2 groups of 4. Top two to semi-finals. 4th placed teams in relegation playoff if an Ulster team wins the Tailteann.
LEINSTER
2 groups of 4. Top two to semi-finals. 4th placed teams in relegation playoff if a Leinster team wins the Tailteann.
CONNACHT
1 group of 4. Top two to final. 4th placed team relegated if a Connacht team wins the Tailteann.
MUNSTER
1 group of 4. Top two to final. 4th placed team relegated if a Munster team wins the Tailteann.
ALL-IRELAND PRELIMINARY QUARTER-FINALS:
4 provincial runners-up versus 4 Leinster and Ulster losing semi-finalists.
ALL-IRELAND QUARTER-FINALS:
4 provincial winners versus 4 Pre-QF winners.
TAILTEANN CUP
2 groups of 4. Top two to semi-finals.
Tailteann winner promoted to their provincial championship of the following year.
New York a conundrum as always. Possibly New York can travel for a Tailteann Cup quarter-final against the lowest ranked group runner-up or some other suitable arrangement can be agreed upon."
Tier Provincial championships are a shocking idea.

The 8 teams left out won't be on merit.

The teams ultimately qualifying also aren't necessarily going to be a reflection of the best teams.

Really the knockout provincials are probably getting most of the relevant fixtures played already, I just don't think there's a need to add more.

You look at Connacht, is it going to be more exciting having Mayo, Galway and Roscommon playing each other in 4 games rather than 2. Is them playing against Leitrim and London also adding much?

What about Munster, does anyone want 16 Munster championship fixtures.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 14/07/2024 13:59:30    2558958

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Tier Provincial championships are a shocking idea.

The 8 teams left out won't be on merit.

The teams ultimately qualifying also aren't necessarily going to be a reflection of the best teams.

Really the knockout provincials are probably getting most of the relevant fixtures played already, I just don't think there's a need to add more.

You look at Connacht, is it going to be more exciting having Mayo, Galway and Roscommon playing each other in 4 games rather than 2. Is them playing against Leitrim and London also adding much?

What about Munster, does anyone want 16 Munster championship fixtures."
Sorry I forgot that you Leitrim and London won't feature in your system and it'll be only 13 Munster championship games.

But let's take Connacht, let's say Sligo come bottom of that group but played well against all the big 3 and are clearly better than London or Leitrim but are relegated because Leitrim have won a competition amongst the weaker teams.

Promotion and relegation for the All Ireland isn't being determined fully on the pitch, it's partly being determined by geographical quirks. The same exists in hurling and it's not great but they kind of get away with it because the 5th placed team in Munster is likely a good bit better than the 6th placed team in Leinster but still there are issues with competitive integrity that set up brings up.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 14/07/2024 14:11:22    2558963

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Does this work?:

Pre-2018 Qualifiers with a "twist" to counter Prov imbalance:

Prov SF 16 (2nd chance after SF 16, F 8, Champs 4 Rd)
+ Rd 1 Qual 16 (3rd chance after Rd 1 only, then KO)

Rd 2 Qual 16 (Open Draw, 16 SF & Rd 1 "losers")

Prov F 8

Rd 3 Qual 20 (4 PF losers + 16 Rds 1&2 winners)

Prov Champs 4 Playoff

Rd 4 Qual 12 (2 PChamps losers + 10 Rd 3 winners)

AI QFs (2 unbeaten PChamps + 6 Rd 4 winners)
SFs
F

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 14/07/2024 15:04:38    2558977

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in hurling and it's not great but they kind of get away with it because the 5th placed team in Munster is likely a good bit better than the 6th placed team in Leinster but still there are issues with competitive integrity that set up brings up.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4314 - 14/07/2024 14:11:22 2558963

In hurling, they could mix n match.
Group A (5 teams) - seeds 1,4 & 5 from one Prov with 2&3 from the Other Prov.
Group B (Other 6 teams).
Top Muns & Lein team from each to Prov Finals.
Top 3 in each group join Prov Champs in AI QFs, with latter likely earning byes by advancing twice.

It wouldn't have the current "Muns Champp" but it would be fairer with more balanced intensity.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 14/07/2024 15:30:30    2558981

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Tier Provincial championships are a shocking idea.

The 8 teams left out won't be on merit.

The teams ultimately qualifying also aren't necessarily going to be a reflection of the best teams.

Really the knockout provincials are probably getting most of the relevant fixtures played already, I just don't think there's a need to add more.

You look at Connacht, is it going to be more exciting having Mayo, Galway and Roscommon playing each other in 4 games rather than 2. Is them playing against Leitrim and London also adding much?

What about Munster, does anyone want 16 Munster championship fixtures."
If a tiered provincial championship is a non runner for those reasons, bring back the qualifiers for 7 qualifiers to join the 8 provincial finalists and the Tailteann winner from the previous year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 14/07/2024 16:53:32    2558997

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If a tiered provincial championship is a non runner for those reasons, bring back the qualifiers for 7 qualifiers to join the 8 provincial finalists and the Tailteann winner from the previous year."
Or my pre-2018 Qualifiers with a "twist" above.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 14/07/2024 17:32:47    2559004

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Replying To omahant:  "Or my pre-2018 Qualifiers with a "twist" above."
Or provincial championships before league. 13:10:10 split. 8 league, 4 provincial winners and Tailteann winner into All-Ireland series. Next best 10 from the league into the Tailteann. The remaining 9 and New York into a Tier 3.
The All-Ireland series, Tailteann and Tier 3 all run on knockout basis. League seeding used for all rounds. The top 2 from the league potentially kept apart until the All-Ireland final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 14/07/2024 17:50:29    2559013

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Or provincial championships before league. 13:10:10 split. 8 league, 4 provincial winners and Tailteann winner into All-Ireland series. Next best 10 from the league into the Tailteann. The remaining 9 and New York into a Tier 3.
The All-Ireland series, Tailteann and Tier 3 all run on knockout basis. League seeding used for all rounds. The top 2 from the league potentially kept apart until the All-Ireland final."
It works - 3 Tier 1 byes based on Prov Champs higher league ranking?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 14/07/2024 18:16:13    2559032

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Replying To omahant:  "It works - 3 Tier 1 byes based on Prov Champs higher league ranking?"
The top 3 in Division 1 can earn a bye to the All-Ireland quarter-finals. Provincial champions and Tailteann winners can qualify for the All-Ireland series but league ranking should take precedence so that the current competition is offering a carrot for all as much as possible.
The All-Ireland quarter-finals can remain in Croke Park. Division 2, 3 and 4 winners could be guaranteed home advantage in their first championship round, be that All-Ireland preliminary quarter-final, Tailteann quarter-final, Tailteann preliminary quarter-final, Tier 3 quarter-final or Tier 3 preliminary quarter-final.
Retaining league finals or not is debatable. League finalists with a bye to quarter-finals would have a reasonable four week break. A non league-finalist with a bye to quarter-finals might have a five week break. That might not find favour?
If league finals are sacrificed because knockout championship is on the horizon, teams would have no more than a four week break. Decisions, decisions, decisions!!!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 14/07/2024 18:51:02    2559044

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What about...
You have the league which runs from midday January to start of April. Then a 3 week break. Then u have provincial championship until June. Then u run the same format as this year but only top 2 teams advance from each group and go quarter final and then semi. And then the all ireland final in August

Lúla571210 (Louth) - Posts: 61 - 14/07/2024 23:44:16    2559159

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8108 - 14/07/2024 18:51:02 2559044

If the League is de-linked from the AIC, I'd play the AIC as my "pre-2018 Qualifiers with a twist" above (with possibly, "bottom 16" teams within the 10 Rd 3 losers contesting the Tailteann Cup) - if there could be a combined League-Championship, I'd go for my League two-tiers of 16 teams (all playing 12 "regular season" games) leading into a three-tier post season of 8-12-8 (teams placed 29-32 failing to make Tier 3 KO).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 15/07/2024 01:56:47    2559177

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Replying To Lúla571210:  "What about...
You have the league which runs from midday January to start of April. Then a 3 week break. Then u have provincial championship until June. Then u run the same format as this year but only top 2 teams advance from each group and go quarter final and then semi. And then the all ireland final in August"
How late in August?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 15/07/2024 11:32:18    2559247

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Replying To Lúla571210:  "What about...
You have the league which runs from midday January to start of April. Then a 3 week break. Then u have provincial championship until June. Then u run the same format as this year but only top 2 teams advance from each group and go quarter final and then semi. And then the all ireland final in August"
Midday or midnight?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 15/07/2024 17:01:43    2559351

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