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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To omahant:  "I'll be very surprised if the widely discussed "two-chance KO" is not implemented for next season (i.e. 4 Rd 2A winners to QFs, 8 others to Rd 3/Prelim QFs).

As usual, I'd like to see it done with a twist - within the '4 groups of 4' and where 2, 3 or 4 teams could advance from a group depending on results after 2 games, as follows:

Pot 1 - 8 seeds, incl 4 Prov Champs, 4 League highest.
Pot 2 - 8 non-seed other teams.
Draw 2 from Pot 1 to each group (Slots 1 & 2).
Draw 2 from Pot 2 to each group (Slots 3 & 4).

Rd 1 (Groups 1 & 3) - Slot 1v2 & 3v4 (1&3 at home).
Rd 1 (Groups 2 & 4) - Slot 2v3 & 4v1 (2&4 at home).

Rd 2 (Groups 1 & 3) - Slot 2v3 & 4v1 (1&3 away).
Rd 2 (Groups 2 & 4) - Slot 1v2 & 3v4 (2&4 away).

After 2 games per team, 'double winners' advance to AI QFs (could be 0 to 8 teams); and 'split one-win, one-loss teams' advance to AI Prelim Rd (could be 0 to 16 teams).

As all play one seed & one non-seed in their group, any pairing is possible - e.g. Dublin v Kerry.
If all 16 get a third game, it would be a 'Rd of 16 KO'.

Does the variable team count KO spice things up, or amount to a needless complication?"
So, with 8 pts shared in each group - how teams advance is based on the various pts-split outcomes:

4400, 4310, 4211, 3311 = top 2 to QFs, other 2 out.
4220, 3320, 3221 = top 3 advance, 1st gets bye to QFs.
2222 = all 4 advance to Prelim QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 19/06/2024 17:41:18    2553069

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https://hoganstand.com/article/index/332458
Kerry and Offaly both have group stages where noone is knocked out after the group stage! The All-Ireland 16 to 12 is bad but it's not that bad!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 19/06/2024 18:55:30    2553086

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Replying To legendzxix:  "https://hoganstand.com/article/index/332458
Kerry and Offaly both have group stages where noone is knocked out after the group stage! The All-Ireland 16 to 12 is bad but it's not that bad!"
I think in the club game it's not great but it's not as bad.

In the inter-county game you have the national league as the opportunity to get games with one another.

The club game has the leagues too but in some counties they are almost seen as a friendly competition and so they try to give club panels more games with one another including their county players but not at the full intensity of championship.

Again the big issue is that the footprint of the inter county game is too large and it hurts both it and the club game.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 20/06/2024 08:49:31    2553114

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Replying To legendzxix:  "https://hoganstand.com/article/index/332458
Kerry and Offaly both have group stages where noone is knocked out after the group stage! The All-Ireland 16 to 12 is bad but it's not that bad!"
Do they use them for seeding then?
E.g Top of 1 section v bottom of other, etc?
Match practice as County lads re integrate etc?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 20/06/2024 09:49:39    2553126

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "
Replying To legendzxix:  "https://hoganstand.com/article/index/332458
Kerry and Offaly both have group stages where noone is knocked out after the group stage! The All-Ireland 16 to 12 is bad but it's not that bad!"
Do they use them for seeding then?
E.g Top of 1 section v bottom of other, etc?
Match practice as County lads re integrate etc?"
Basically seeding. The top two from three groups in the Kerry hurling championship advance to the quarter-finals. The remaining 4 teams, (10 teams in 2 groups of 3 and 1 group of 4), contest two preliminary quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 20/06/2024 10:38:19    2553144

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Replying To legendzxix:  "https://hoganstand.com/article/index/332458
Kerry and Offaly both have group stages where noone is knocked out after the group stage! The All-Ireland 16 to 12 is bad but it's not that bad!"
OK, 16 to 12 is better :) - what about my "16 to X" above? - 16 could advance but only if all win 1 of 2 games (instead of actual 1 of 3) - I'd have "all top 8 games" in Groups 1&3 (Rd 1) and Groups 2&4 (Rd 2) before getting down to KO business. Is 16 to X better than 16 to 12 (latter via 4 from Rd 2A & 8 from Rd 3).
Given anyone advances with 1 win from 2 games, maybe an Open Draw for rounds Rds 1 & 2 would be better/suffice? (is the Leitrim/Cavan model flawed?)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 20/06/2024 12:14:15    2553176

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@omahant (USA) - 20/06/2024 12:14:15
Bring back the qualifiers. The 24 counties that miss out on the provincial finals, and who are not the Tailteann winner, playing off for 7 places. Three rounds of qualifiers will bring back some knockout drama while the provincial championships are concluded. The league could be used for fair seeding.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 20/06/2024 12:38:27    2553182

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Replying To omahant:  "
Replying To legendzxix:  "https://hoganstand.com/article/index/332458
Kerry and Offaly both have group stages where noone is knocked out after the group stage! The All-Ireland 16 to 12 is bad but it's not that bad!"
OK, 16 to 12 is better :) - what about my "16 to X" above? - 16 could advance but only if all win 1 of 2 games (instead of actual 1 of 3) - I'd have "all top 8 games" in Groups 1&3 (Rd 1) and Groups 2&4 (Rd 2) before getting down to KO business. Is 16 to X better than 16 to 12 (latter via 4 from Rd 2A & 8 from Rd 3).
Given anyone advances with 1 win from 2 games, maybe an Open Draw for rounds Rds 1 & 2 would be better/suffice? (is the Leitrim/Cavan model flawed?)"
Take a break ladeen.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 20/06/2024 12:53:57    2553186

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The rules of the competition allow any county lose 3 times and still have a chance to win the all Ireland.
It won't happen but thems the rules.

The bigger question is why are a team like Galway (and Mayo) rewarded with good performance by putting them into a very tough schedule

There should be a gap week between the prelim q final and the q final."
Mayo and Dublin, Galway and Armagh all knew what was at stake on Sunday and also knew the possible value of points difference in the previous rounds.
Both Mayo and Galway failed to get the required wins to earn a q/f place and a two week break, that is what was at stake last Sunday and that jeopardy made the games more interesting.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 793 - 20/06/2024 13:22:29    2553193

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Replying To legendzxix:  "@omahant (USA) - 20/06/2024 12:14:15
Bring back the qualifiers. The 24 counties that miss out on the provincial finals, and who are not the Tailteann winner, playing off for 7 places. Three rounds of qualifiers will bring back some knockout drama while the provincial championships are concluded. The league could be used for fair seeding."
The only way to try and get the thing right is to remove the provincials from the All Ireland competition.
Then 32 teams, 4 groups of 8, league format, top 2 in each group in to quarter finals, group winners get home advantage.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3029 - 20/06/2024 13:38:36    2553200

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "The only way to try and get the thing right is to remove the provincials from the All Ireland competition.
Then 32 teams, 4 groups of 8, league format, top 2 in each group in to quarter finals, group winners get home advantage."
You will not get rid of the provincials/ move them to a preseason slot in our lifetime. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas and county boards do not vote to get rid of their own biggest cashcows. Despite the local interest in crunch league games and the novelty of getting to play in the dome in the case of the FBD league, it is still all about championship for a lot of people.

gaelsboy (Leitrim) - Posts: 565 - 20/06/2024 15:11:29    2553218

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Replying To gaelsboy:  "You will not get rid of the provincials/ move them to a preseason slot in our lifetime. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas and county boards do not vote to get rid of their own biggest cashcows. Despite the local interest in crunch league games and the novelty of getting to play in the dome in the case of the FBD league, it is still all about championship for a lot of people."
Positions 3 and 4 in those groups of 8 go into the Tailteann Cup quarter finals, I don't think it's the worst idea,
then get rid of the forward mark, have marks available only from kickouts beyond the 45 mt line. Get rid of the black card, make it a rule that goalies can't come further out than their 21, if they do it's a free in.
And then restore the All Ireland final to it's Sept slot, job done.
Then stop messing with the rules

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3029 - 20/06/2024 17:01:41    2553234

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Replying To gaelsboy:  "You will not get rid of the provincials/ move them to a preseason slot in our lifetime. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas and county boards do not vote to get rid of their own biggest cashcows. Despite the local interest in crunch league games and the novelty of getting to play in the dome in the case of the FBD league, it is still all about championship for a lot of people."
I just don't understand the confidence that people have when they say things like this.

The Provincials were really close to being decoupled from the All Ireland and moved to the start of the season in a vote just a matter of years ago. The vote had a majority in favour of such a move just not enough to effect change.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 20/06/2024 17:11:31    2553236

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "The only way to try and get the thing right is to remove the provincials from the All Ireland competition.
Then 32 teams, 4 groups of 8, league format, top 2 in each group in to quarter finals, group winners get home advantage."
This wouldn't be a good structure.

Too many games between good teams and not good teams that have very little chance of getting remotely close to a top 2 place.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 20/06/2024 17:12:52    2553239

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Oisín McConville is saying there should be a conversation around introducing a third tier. Supposedly a third tier is in the GAA's six format shortlist but the CCCC are not endorsing it.
The double elimination format currently favoured by the GAA for both All-Ireland and Tailteann seems a fair shout.
Seems extreme to introduce a third tier so soon. The two Division 2 teams haven't made the Tailteann semi-finals. Down, Antrim and Laois have competed in all three Tailteann Cup campaigns. Sligo did compete in the All-Ireland last year but that was off the back of winning Division 4 and having a fortunate draw where beating London and New York saw them qualify for the All-Ireland series.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 20/06/2024 17:59:42    2553246

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "The only way to try and get the thing right is to remove the provincials from the All Ireland competition.
Then 32 teams, 4 groups of 8, league format, top 2 in each group in to quarter finals, group winners get home advantage."
4 groups of 8? A single tier competition. You can't be serious?

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8155 - 20/06/2024 18:06:43    2553248

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I just don't understand the confidence that people have when they say things like this.

The Provincials were really close to being decoupled from the All Ireland and moved to the start of the season in a vote just a matter of years ago. The vote had a majority in favour of such a move just not enough to effect change."
Provincial Councils and their full time officials wield an awful lot of influence in GAA politics.
They helped to ensure that proposal you refer to didn't make the 60%.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 20/06/2024 19:01:45    2553256

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Replying To Whammo86:  "This wouldn't be a good structure.

Too many games between good teams and not good teams that have very little chance of getting remotely close to a top 2 place."
So what happens the bottom teams ? Antrim get 3 champ games a year ?

veterngaa (Monaghan) - Posts: 651 - 20/06/2024 19:59:13    2553259

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "The only way to try and get the thing right is to remove the provincials from the All Ireland competition.
Then 32 teams, 4 groups of 8, league format, top 2 in each group in to quarter finals, group winners get home advantage."
What nonsense…. Imagine Kerry or Dublin v London…? There would be about 25 at it…. It's more likely we need a 3rd Championship… The Sam Maguire is to top heavy with rubbish and the Taltainn is out of reach for a lot of teams too…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3025 - 20/06/2024 21:17:19    2553268

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8033 - 20/06/2024 12:38:27

For a 32-county with Back Door Qualifiers, Whammo's idea is best -
Rd 1 = 16 lowest league-ranked non-Prov Finalists.
Rd 2 = next 8 lowest league-ranked non-Prov Champs v 8 Rd 1 winners.
Rd 3/Rd of 16 = remaining highest 8 & 8 Rd 2 winners.
QFs.
SFs.
F.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 20/06/2024 22:45:27    2553282

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