National Forum

New Allianz Hurling League Structure For 2025 Ratified

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Pikeman96:  "The GAA or anybody else could market the McDonagh Cup semi-finals all they want, but realistically, chances are slim of getting the sort of sell-out crowds that you mention in your earlier post.

Much the same as if Wexford reached the semi-final of the Tailteann Cup in football, and had a home draw - it could be marketed to the high heavens, but we still probably wouldn't even half fill Wexford Park, never mind all of it."
True although Wexford brought a good crowd to Croke Park for the Tyrone game in 2008.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/12/2023 15:58:56    2516791

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "The GAA or anybody else could market the McDonagh Cup semi-finals all they want, but realistically, chances are slim of getting the sort of sell-out crowds that you mention in your earlier post.

Much the same as if Wexford reached the semi-final of the Tailteann Cup in football, and had a home draw - it could be marketed to the high heavens, but we still probably wouldn't even half fill Wexford Park, never mind all of it."
17,500 attended the Tailteann Cup semi-finals this year. Carlow have a capacity of 11,000.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8274 - 14/12/2023 22:21:22    2516843

Link

Replying To Viking66:  "True although Wexford brought a good crowd to Croke Park for the Tyrone game in 2008."
We did. I was among them myself. But that was a time when we'd been flying high in the League and in the Leinster championship for a few years, and even still, the Wexford crowd that day was only a fraction of what we'd typically bring for a Leinster Hurling Final.

As not much more than mid-table Div. 4 football side for the last few years (unfortunately), I'd be surprised if we had Wexford Park any more than half filled for a Tailteann semi-final.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 15/12/2023 16:26:48    2516965

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "17,500 attended the Tailteann Cup semi-finals this year. Carlow have a capacity of 11,000."
Am not sure what that has to do with the price of turnips. You were talking about trying to get sell-out crowds at the McDonagh Cup semi-finals, not the Tailteann Cup ones.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 15/12/2023 18:15:17    2516975

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "Am not sure what that has to do with the price of turnips. You were talking about trying to get sell-out crowds at the McDonagh Cup semi-finals, not the Tailteann Cup ones."
I am talking about selling out for McDonagh semi-finals. If 9,000 are turning for one Tailteann Cup semi-final, why can't Carlow have a full house for a McDonagh semi-final, if they ever happen to return to McDonagh level?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8274 - 15/12/2023 23:33:57    2517011

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "I am talking about selling out for McDonagh semi-finals. If 9,000 are turning for one Tailteann Cup semi-final, why can't Carlow have a full house for a McDonagh semi-final, if they ever happen to return to McDonagh level?"
Carlow don't usually get full houses for big football games. If they were competitive at McCarthy level I suspect they'd draw bigger crowds ok. But probably not for a 2nd tier competition. At the end of the day people only get on bandwagons to follow success. There were only around 2000 Wexford fans at this years championship game against Westmeath for example, but if we get to a Leinster Final that's different, there were around 40000 of us in Croker in 2017 and 2019.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 16/12/2023 10:48:39    2517027

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think it'd be change for change sake.

The Joe McDonagh was a funky set up that was put in place because the Provincial groups didn't work with the 14 teams that were playing in the All Ireland before they were put in place and having 10 teams was too elitist.

Having a 2nd tier gain entry to the knockout rounds is such a stupid GAA type solution to things.

The top tier needs to be 12 teams at least. The second tier needs to be its own second tier. 5 tiers for Championship is too much for 35 teams.

It's not a bad thing for teams to play a wider range of opponents and give an opportunity to develop to weaker teams.

You get the argument about there being non dud fixtures and everyone being close to one another but that sort of dynamic only last for a short period of time as relegation and promotion and other mini gaps between teams start to emerge and you'd need to constantly realign divisions to keep those dynamics. That's been an historical issue for hurling that they do too much realigning and it's been at the expense of openness. Legend's idea is in the spirit of openness of competition which would be important for the game."
Recently, I read that Antrim is tabling a merger of the McDonagh into Leinster - sounds promising, but there would be blowouts and a greater gap with Munster.

To your "gap/need to realign" point - for consistency and bridging gaps, I had a top 16 teams idea, with 3 ranked groups of 5, 6 & 5 teams divided into 1A, 1B & 1C, respectively.
1A plays 1A & 1B (10 games);
1C plays 1C & 1B (10 games); and
1B plays 1A & 1C (10 games).
One up / one down between 1A, 1B & 1C.

This I feel addresses the "half div gaps" where McDonagh teams will play the Lower McCarthy teams every year and the team going up to/down from 1A continues to play the top McCarthy teams in consecutive seasons.

Given 16 teams is a stretch, I'd have "team 17, tier 2 champ" in a "win your way up" with "team 16, tier 1" so team 16 has a chance to continue playing 1B if they are good enough to stay up. OK, I see team 6v16, v15, v14 etc as uncompetitive, but nothing is perfect.

Provincial Championships (M & L) revert to KO, with the ties doubling as part of the 10-game schedule (only Finals are stand alone).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 16/12/2023 12:26:24    2517044

Link

Replying To omahant:  "Recently, I read that Antrim is tabling a merger of the McDonagh into Leinster - sounds promising, but there would be blowouts and a greater gap with Munster.

To your "gap/need to realign" point - for consistency and bridging gaps, I had a top 16 teams idea, with 3 ranked groups of 5, 6 & 5 teams divided into 1A, 1B & 1C, respectively.
1A plays 1A & 1B (10 games);
1C plays 1C & 1B (10 games); and
1B plays 1A & 1C (10 games).
One up / one down between 1A, 1B & 1C.

This I feel addresses the "half div gaps" where McDonagh teams will play the Lower McCarthy teams every year and the team going up to/down from 1A continues to play the top McCarthy teams in consecutive seasons.

Given 16 teams is a stretch, I'd have "team 17, tier 2 champ" in a "win your way up" with "team 16, tier 1" so team 16 has a chance to continue playing 1B if they are good enough to stay up. OK, I see team 6v16, v15, v14 etc as uncompetitive, but nothing is perfect.

Provincial Championships (M & L) revert to KO, with the ties doubling as part of the 10-game schedule (only Finals are stand alone)."
Who goes through to the knockout rounds.

You can't have teams in the same competition intentionally playing different quality of opponent.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 16/12/2023 19:52:47    2517091

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "Who goes through to the knockout rounds.

You can't have teams in the same competition intentionally playing different quality of opponent."
You're going to have exactly that situation (teams in the same competition playing different quality of opponents) in soccer's Champions League next year. It will be interesting to see how that works out.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 122 - 16/12/2023 22:20:25    2517109

Link

The European Rugby Champions Cup have sensibly cut their cloth. 4 group games and 4 knockout rounds. Munster play against 2 English and 2 French opponents. No need to play Glasgow who are in their URC league.
If hurling took that approach in 2 groups of 6 after knockout provincial championships:
Group A: Munster finalists, Leinster semi-finalists and 2 unseeded.
Group B: Leinster finalists, Munster semi-finalists and 2 unseeded.
Munster and Leinster finalists would play the other 4 teams in their group. Munster and Leinster semi-finalists would play the other 4 teams in their group. Unseeded counties would play the other 4 teams in their group.
After 4 rounds, top 4 from, each group into quarter-finals. Bottom 2 in each group into relegation semi-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8274 - 17/12/2023 08:56:44    2517124

Link

Someone recommending the European rugby cup structure has to be a wind up. Gloucester last year qualified for knockout stages having lost 3 matches shipping two annihilations. Teams in that competition don't even field properly.

Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1907 - 17/12/2023 10:58:51    2517130

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "Who goes through to the knockout rounds.

You can't have teams in the same competition intentionally playing different quality of opponent."
Maybe I didn't make it clear but 1A, 1B & 1C are separate competitions, with teams in each playing an identical 10 opponents, unlike next year's Champions League. I'd hope the crossover ties would bridge the gap in standards over time.

League - no KO, just top team wins the division.
AIC KO - Munster KO Champ v Leinster KO Champ, or alternatively, those two, 1A all 5 and 1B Champ in an 8-team AIC KO (byes for Champs if they, most likely, qualify twice).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 17/12/2023 13:08:21    2517150

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The European Rugby Champions Cup have sensibly cut their cloth. 4 group games and 4 knockout rounds. Munster play against 2 English and 2 French opponents. No need to play Glasgow who are in their URC league.
If hurling took that approach in 2 groups of 6 after knockout provincial championships:
Group A: Munster finalists, Leinster semi-finalists and 2 unseeded.
Group B: Leinster finalists, Munster semi-finalists and 2 unseeded.
Munster and Leinster finalists would play the other 4 teams in their group. Munster and Leinster semi-finalists would play the other 4 teams in their group. Unseeded counties would play the other 4 teams in their group.
After 4 rounds, top 4 from, each group into quarter-finals. Bottom 2 in each group into relegation semi-finals."
Yeah, in rugby's EPCR, that reform seems to be an improvement on what they had.

BUT, it remains to be seen if that new format, along with the Champions League change and your new hurling idea have enough "bite" - trickier to miss out on the KO stage than to get in.

In the Champions League, to increase jeopardy and to better reward 'league stage' performance, I would've preferred if they had teams 14 to 25 entering two one-legged playoff rounds (each higher team hosts) - then only 3 of 12 join the 'top 13' in the KO Rd of 16.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 17/12/2023 13:27:23    2517155

Link

Replying To Claretandblue:  "Someone recommending the European rugby cup structure has to be a wind up. Gloucester last year qualified for knockout stages having lost 3 matches shipping two annihilations. Teams in that competition don't even field properly."
6 groups of 4, with 6 winners & 2 best 2nds to KO QFs worked better. They could advance the same quantity with the new 4 groups of 6 - just top two from each - or to spice it up a bit - add 4 best record "wild cards" from across the groups for a 12-team KO (byes for 4 group winners). The latter may be the sweet spot between an exclusive 8 and an unworthy 16.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 17/12/2023 13:36:29    2517159

Link

Replying To Claretandblue:  "Someone recommending the European rugby cup structure has to be a wind up. Gloucester last year qualified for knockout stages having lost 3 matches shipping two annihilations. Teams in that competition don't even field properly."
Yeah I think 2 groups of 6 playing a regular 5 games with 3 going through from each group is fine. It's clean and simple.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 17/12/2023 13:44:26    2517161

Link

Replying To omahant:  "Yeah, in rugby's EPCR, that reform seems to be an improvement on what they had.

BUT, it remains to be seen if that new format, along with the Champions League change and your new hurling idea have enough "bite" - trickier to miss out on the KO stage than to get in.

In the Champions League, to increase jeopardy and to better reward 'league stage' performance, I would've preferred if they had teams 14 to 25 entering two one-legged playoff rounds (each higher team hosts) - then only 3 of 12 join the 'top 13' in the KO Rd of 16."
The Leitrim Senior Football Championship has a single group of 10 teams. Each team plays 4 games. 3rd to 6th enter quarter-finals. The bottom 4 enter relegation semi-finals.
The Cavan Senior Football Championship has a single group of 12 teams. Each team plays 4 games. The top 8 enter quarter-finals. The bottom 4 enter relegation semi-finals.
Sensible formats with both counties cutting their cloth.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8274 - 17/12/2023 16:09:14    2517189

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The Leitrim Senior Football Championship has a single group of 10 teams. Each team plays 4 games. 3rd to 6th enter quarter-finals. The bottom 4 enter relegation semi-finals.
The Cavan Senior Football Championship has a single group of 12 teams. Each team plays 4 games. The top 8 enter quarter-finals. The bottom 4 enter relegation semi-finals.
Sensible formats with both counties cutting their cloth."
Leitrim and Cavan setting the trend for UEFA.

With a majority of teams going to the KO, it's less important that opponents are identical - balanced mixed quality is good enough (I think) - that's got to be better than half teams out after one KO rd (FA Cup).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 17/12/2023 18:47:20    2517214

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The Leitrim Senior Football Championship has a single group of 10 teams. Each team plays 4 games. 3rd to 6th enter quarter-finals. The bottom 4 enter relegation semi-finals.
The Cavan Senior Football Championship has a single group of 12 teams. Each team plays 4 games. The top 8 enter quarter-finals. The bottom 4 enter relegation semi-finals.
Sensible formats with both counties cutting their cloth."
I read recently that after NHL 2024, the two 4ths won't playoff - the better record team gets a berth in 7-team Div 1A in 2025 instead.
Can anyone confirm?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 17/12/2023 18:53:30    2517215

Link

Replying To omahant:  "I read recently that after NHL 2024, the two 4ths won't playoff - the better record team gets a berth in 7-team Div 1A in 2025 instead.
Can anyone confirm?"
Below is how the teams will be allocated after the conclusion of the 2024 Allianz Hurling
League:
Division 1a in 2025 will consist of
• Top 3 placed teams in Division 1a and Division 1b (6)
• The 4th placed team from Div 1a or Division 1b with the best record (1)
• If both teams in 4
th place have the same number of league points, the tie is to be
determined by (i) Scoring Difference (ii) Highest Total Score for (iii) Most Goals for
(iv) Least Goals against (v) A playoff.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8274 - 17/12/2023 19:45:01    2517224

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Below is how the teams will be allocated after the conclusion of the 2024 Allianz Hurling
League:
Division 1a in 2025 will consist of
• Top 3 placed teams in Division 1a and Division 1b (6)
• The 4th placed team from Div 1a or Division 1b with the best record (1)
• If both teams in 4
th place have the same number of league points, the tie is to be
determined by (i) Scoring Difference (ii) Highest Total Score for (iii) Most Goals for
(iv) Least Goals against (v) A playoff."
Cheers - I wonder why the 'two 4ths' playoff game went away - maybe someone just misrepresented it.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 18/12/2023 15:44:35    2517316

Link