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Replying To wexfordwin: "This is a really good piece on the Wexford GAA website. It sets out the problems and makes some suggestions to improve things. https://wexfordgaa.ie/wexford-gaa-in-2023/" Read it yesterday. Some good ideas like group winners going in to SFs. Some bad like going back to alternate blocks which will lower the standard of the football and hurling in dual clubs, which nearly all clubs in Wexford are.
The underage proposals like coaching the coaches once a year and setting a minimum for number of training sessions are good, but maybe don't go far enough. The proposal to make u12 completely non competitive would be a big step backwards if implemented. What they should do to deter the win at all costs mentality of some mentors is deduct points if any substitutes are unused. I was talking to a referee and he said it would be easy enough for the referees to police this. Everyone has to get game time it's very important at that age.
I think minor should stay as it is. U18 and not playing adult. Clubs who are short of numbers should make a better effort at keeping in touch with adult players who drop out for work, travel and young family reasons, and encourage these lads to return when they can. Many clubs don't bother.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 06/12/2023 09:58:32
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Agree on most of your points above but I still completely disagree with not going back to alternative weeks. Hope this part especially passes. Dont see how its lowering the standard at all. Clubs will always prioritise one over the other, thats just the nature of things and thats not going to change. Look at the attendance levels for football, streaming numbers, all down. Once hurling is over, interest levels dwindle. At least if its was both alternative, gives players who favour one over the other to focus on that or if he is injured he dosent miss his whole championship.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 443 - 06/12/2023 12:42:43
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Replying To Viking66: "Read it yesterday. Some good ideas like group winners going in to SFs. Some bad like going back to alternate blocks which will lower the standard of the football and hurling in dual clubs, which nearly all clubs in Wexford are.
The underage proposals like coaching the coaches once a year and setting a minimum for number of training sessions are good, but maybe don't go far enough. The proposal to make u12 completely non competitive would be a big step backwards if implemented. What they should do to deter the win at all costs mentality of some mentors is deduct points if any substitutes are unused. I was talking to a referee and he said it would be easy enough for the referees to police this. Everyone has to get game time it's very important at that age.
I think minor should stay as it is. U18 and not playing adult. Clubs who are short of numbers should make a better effort at keeping in touch with adult players who drop out for work, travel and young family reasons, and encourage these lads to return when they can. Many clubs don't bother." I think most people will agree or disagree with some points. Just thought it gave a good overview of where we are at and especially the challenge of being a dual county..
wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 185 - 06/12/2023 15:18:24
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Replying To wexfordwin: "I think most people will agree or disagree with some points. Just thought it gave a good overview of where we are at and especially the challenge of being a dual county.." It does. We certainly have unique challenges here.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 06/12/2023 17:16:59
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A lot of posts here relating to the Under 18/Decoupling issue.
Has anyone posting in favour of stopping 18 year olds playing adult actually played hurling or football? I highly doubt it because if you think back to when you were that age i have no doubt that you were delighted to get a chance to play with the adults having spent years watching and supporting them from the sidelines. Do you think fella's of that age care about fixture congestion or fixture clashes?? Of course they dont they just want to play the games end of. All the arguments in favour are focussing purely on the fixtures issue, What about what the players want? whats best for their development?
If anyone can honestly argue that its best for this age cohort to play less games and that this will help their development you simply dont understand the games or havent played them.
Think of a scenario where a fella's bitrhday is January/Febuary - these players will be 19 and half by the time they play a championship game for their club at adult level. At that age a lot of guys have gone off to college and will only be really available when they Summer comes if they stay around. At least the old system (which was in place since the GAA began....) a player would have started playing for his club at 17 when he was still in school got to know the other lads and what the set up is etc. The club had a handle on him and then when he went off the college had a much better chance of keeping in touch with him and so on. Stopping players integrating into adult grades when they are still minor stops all of that and major risks exist then to retaining those players when you have got them in to start with. Dont forget the same guy has been playing soccer for his local adult team from the age of 16/17 if he wants to. If people cant see the problem that presents you are burying your head in the sand.
Dont make this decision to make fixtures planning easier , make it based on whats best for players.
OasisorBlur (Wexford) - Posts: 46 - 07/12/2023 12:16:28
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Replying To OasisorBlur: "A lot of posts here relating to the Under 18/Decoupling issue.
Has anyone posting in favour of stopping 18 year olds playing adult actually played hurling or football? I highly doubt it because if you think back to when you were that age i have no doubt that you were delighted to get a chance to play with the adults having spent years watching and supporting them from the sidelines. Do you think fella's of that age care about fixture congestion or fixture clashes?? Of course they dont they just want to play the games end of. All the arguments in favour are focussing purely on the fixtures issue, What about what the players want? whats best for their development?
If anyone can honestly argue that its best for this age cohort to play less games and that this will help their development you simply dont understand the games or havent played them.
Think of a scenario where a fella's bitrhday is January/Febuary - these players will be 19 and half by the time they play a championship game for their club at adult level. At that age a lot of guys have gone off to college and will only be really available when they Summer comes if they stay around. At least the old system (which was in place since the GAA began....) a player would have started playing for his club at 17 when he was still in school got to know the other lads and what the set up is etc. The club had a handle on him and then when he went off the college had a much better chance of keeping in touch with him and so on. Stopping players integrating into adult grades when they are still minor stops all of that and major risks exist then to retaining those players when you have got them in to start with. Dont forget the same guy has been playing soccer for his local adult team from the age of 16/17 if he wants to. If people cant see the problem that presents you are burying your head in the sand.
Dont make this decision to make fixtures planning easier , make it based on whats best for players." I watched a few minor and u21 club games this year and a good many of the lads wouldn't be physically able for adult. Tbh I watched all but one of our u20 intercounty games also this year, and most of those lads wouldn't be near ready for Senior. And they would be a couple years older than the minors. Years ago adult club players, especially at Senior and Intermediate, weren't as big and fast as they are now. The hits weren't the same. The games were slower.
Yes I agree that there are some who would be well able for adult, and certainly they would develop more by playing adult. But they would be a small minority from what I've seen.
And you say fixtures are an irrelevant issue- so when would you propose playing the club minor championships here in Wexford if 10% of the minors were playing adult championship for their clubs also?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 07/12/2023 13:49:24
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@OasisorBlur - I want to ask you the same question Viking did. How and when exactly would you propose to schedule the closing stages of the minor championships if minor players were also allowed to play in the adult grades?
Please give us a proper answer. Please don't just say things like "there must be a way" or "sure how did we manage it before?" or "how do other counties do it?".
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 07/12/2023 21:50:37
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Also @OasisorBlur - am just returning to your line "If anyone can honestly argue that its best for this age cohort to play less games and that this will help their development you simply dont understand the games or havent played them."
Have just looked back on results for my own club for the year. Between the leagues that ran early season and then the championships that started after Leaving Cert, our minors played 25 matches this year - 12 in hurling, and 13 football.
Think you'll agree that's a good number of matches in a games programme for that age group.
If you're worried about them potentially getting less games, then you should actually be absolutely totally opposed to the idea of them being allowed to play adult as well. Because, if that happens:
- more difficult to run the minor leagues in the early part of the season if matches have to be worked around adult All County League fixtures
- more difficult if not impossible to run minor championships for most of September/October if adult fixtures have to take priority.
Only obvious solution would be to drastically cut back the number of matches in minor leagues & championships, such that the vast majority of minor players end up suffering through having less matches, for the sake of the small number who are "needed" for adult teams.
I find it very ironic that you're the one accusing people here of not understanding things.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 08/12/2023 10:17:37
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Also @OasisorBlur - am just returning to your line "If anyone can honestly argue that its best for this age cohort to play less games and that this will help their development you simply dont understand the games or havent played them."
Have just looked back on results for my own club for the year. Between the leagues that ran early season and then the championships that started after Leaving Cert, our minors played 25 matches this year - 12 in hurling, and 13 football.
Think you'll agree that's a good number of matches in a games programme for that age group.
If you're worried about them potentially getting less games, then you should actually be absolutely totally opposed to the idea of them being allowed to play adult as well. Because, if that happens:
- more difficult to run the minor leagues in the early part of the season if matches have to be worked around adult All County League fixtures
- more difficult if not impossible to run minor championships for most of September/October if adult fixtures have to take priority.
Only obvious solution would be to drastically cut back the number of matches in minor leagues & championships, such that the vast majority of minor players end up suffering through having less matches, for the sake of the small number who are "needed" for adult teams.
I find it very ironic that you're the one accusing people here of not understanding things." There are 365 days in the year , thats 25 games (340 days left with no game) and add to that these players you talk of play both hurling and football. If any of them only play hurling they have had 12 games in the whole year... You are actually making a point against your own argument. Do you think thats enough games to keep a player going and developing. Consider the amount of training these lads would be doing without playing games? What do players prefer games or training? Please respond to that particular point when you get chance.
The training to games ratio is completely out of sync in GAA compared to other sports. In GAA its about 5:1 - 5 training to 1 game and its worse than that if you arent with a succesful club.
The option for players who are physically and mentally ready to play adult is vital to increase the amount of games they are exposed to - not more training. Over training is the cause of burnout not games.
As regards the fixtures query, as was forevermore - a minor game could be on a Wednesday (or another mid week day) night with a Junior B , Junior A up to senior on a Friday Saturday or Sunday following that. The minors play their own grade first and become available for adult if they want to play over the weekend. The minor manager gets the boys first and there is at least 2 days between games with less opportunity to over train. There would also have to be arrangements for under 16s obviously to avoid clashes there. Remember lads this was done for donkeys years and is still done in the majority of counties so my case isnt coming with something new its going back to the way it was. Was it always perfect? - far from it nothing in any organisation is but stopping players who are under 18 playing adult will not be a good thing for the development of our players- thank you for this healthy debate.
OasisorBlur (Wexford) - Posts: 46 - 08/12/2023 12:22:35
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Replying To OasisorBlur: " Replying To Pikeman96: "Also @OasisorBlur - am just returning to your line "If anyone can honestly argue that its best for this age cohort to play less games and that this will help their development you simply dont understand the games or havent played them."
Have just looked back on results for my own club for the year. Between the leagues that ran early season and then the championships that started after Leaving Cert, our minors played 25 matches this year - 12 in hurling, and 13 football.
Think you'll agree that's a good number of matches in a games programme for that age group.
If you're worried about them potentially getting less games, then you should actually be absolutely totally opposed to the idea of them being allowed to play adult as well. Because, if that happens:
- more difficult to run the minor leagues in the early part of the season if matches have to be worked around adult All County League fixtures
- more difficult if not impossible to run minor championships for most of September/October if adult fixtures have to take priority.
Only obvious solution would be to drastically cut back the number of matches in minor leagues & championships, such that the vast majority of minor players end up suffering through having less matches, for the sake of the small number who are "needed" for adult teams.
I find it very ironic that you're the one accusing people here of not understanding things." There are 365 days in the year , thats 25 games (340 days left with no game) and add to that these players you talk of play both hurling and football. If any of them only play hurling they have had 12 games in the whole year... You are actually making a point against your own argument. Do you think thats enough games to keep a player going and developing. Consider the amount of training these lads would be doing without playing games? What do players prefer games or training? Please respond to that particular point when you get chance. The training to games ratio is completely out of sync in GAA compared to other sports. In GAA its about 5:1 - 5 training to 1 game and its worse than that if you arent with a succesful club. The option for players who are physically and mentally ready to play adult is vital to increase the amount of games they are exposed to - not more training. Over training is the cause of burnout not games. As regards the fixtures query, as was forevermore - a minor game could be on a Wednesday (or another mid week day) night with a Junior B , Junior A up to senior on a Friday Saturday or Sunday following that. The minors play their own grade first and become available for adult if they want to play over the weekend. The minor manager gets the boys first and there is at least 2 days between games with less opportunity to over train. There would also have to be arrangements for under 16s obviously to avoid clashes there. Remember lads this was done for donkeys years and is still done in the majority of counties so my case isnt coming with something new its going back to the way it was. Was it always perfect? - far from it nothing in any organisation is but stopping players who are under 18 playing adult will not be a good thing for the development of our players- thank you for this healthy debate."
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 08/12/2023 13:44:45
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@OasisorBlur - cutting through all that, it seems the short version of your answer to the question you were asked is to play minor matches midweek, and adult matches at the weekend.
There are several reasons why that simply isn't an option from about the second week of September onwards. Do you want to try think things through properly, or do you want me to spell them out for you?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 08/12/2023 13:59:49
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@OasisorBlur - cutting through all that, it seems the short version of your answer to the question you were asked is to play minor matches midweek, and adult matches at the weekend.
There are several reasons why that simply isn't an option from about the second week of September onwards. Do you want to try think things through properly, or do you want me to spell them out for you?" Several reasons you won't go into.??
Look we won't fall out over it, there are arguments on both sides of the debate I can admit that and I'm sure you can too. It's a debate that sparks a lot of arguments and discussion and no harm in that. From my own clubs perspective I'd like to see the minors being available to the adult teams but bigger clubs probably don't have an issue either way. I'd imagine it'll stay the way it was this year after the convention because the county board are very eager to have it that way and the bases will loaded accordingly.
OasisorBlur (Wexford) - Posts: 46 - 08/12/2023 19:06:48
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Replying To OasisorBlur: "Several reasons you won't go into.??
Look we won't fall out over it, there are arguments on both sides of the debate I can admit that and I'm sure you can too. It's a debate that sparks a lot of arguments and discussion and no harm in that. From my own clubs perspective I'd like to see the minors being available to the adult teams but bigger clubs probably don't have an issue either way. I'd imagine it'll stay the way it was this year after the convention because the county board are very eager to have it that way and the bases will loaded accordingly." I didn't say I wouldn't go into the reasons. I just offered you the opportunity to figure them out yourself if you actually thought these things through properly.
So for the sake of it, here are some - not all - of the reasons why playing minor matches midweek just isn't an option from about the second week of September onwards:
1 - Evenings are getting too short! Couldn't start a match any later than about 6.30 p.m. in the second or third week of September, especially if it's a dull, cloudy and rainy evenings. And throw-ins would have to get progressively earlier in the weeks after that.
2 - Can't say "just play them under lights". Where are you going to get all these floodlit venues? Only about 12 club grounds in the county have lights, and 12 venues is not enough to play a full round of minor championships across all the divisions. So you'd have to split the matches between Tuesday and Wednesday nights, for example.
3 - And then what of the clubs who do have floodlit venues to host them? Will take Ferns as an example since they're the latest club to install lights. Think of the impact it would have on Ferns's own teams and when they could train if Co. Board told them that their pitch was needed every Tuesday & Wednesday for four or five weeks in a row, to act as a neutral venue for minor matches between other clubs.
4 - From about middle of September, some of these players will be heading away to college. Are you going to drag them from (for example) Dublin to Taghmon or from Waterford to Craanford on a Tuesday or Wednesday evening to play a match?
There are some of the reasons. Not all.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 09/12/2023 16:17:34
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The whole minors/adult thing to be decided at Convention tonight anyway.
I'm not a betting man, but even if I was, I wouldn't bet on the likely outcome. Would like to think enough clubs will see sense, consider what it would mean in practice, and vote against it. But am afraid too many will ignore all those things and vote for it, thinking "sure they'll sort something out, because they couldn't really allow any of those things to happen". And then there'll be uproar altogether next year, when one of them does have to happen.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 11/12/2023 09:45:06
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Replying To Pikeman96: "The whole minors/adult thing to be decided at Convention tonight anyway.
I'm not a betting man, but even if I was, I wouldn't bet on the likely outcome. Would like to think enough clubs will see sense, consider what it would mean in practice, and vote against it. But am afraid too many will ignore all those things and vote for it, thinking "sure they'll sort something out, because they couldn't really allow any of those things to happen". And then there'll be uproar altogether next year, when one of them does have to happen." I admire your positivity in thinking that many clubs will vote on things considering all the variables and how it affects things overall in the county.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1423 - 11/12/2023 10:11:33
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Replying To tearintom: "I admire your positivity in thinking that many clubs will vote on things considering all the variables and how it affects things overall in the county." Some will vote for what suits themselves, so clubs struggling for adult numbers might vote to allow minors play adult. Much easier for them to do that than staying in touch with adult players who drop out for any reason. If lads feel wanted they would be more likely to want to come back if their circumstances allow in the future.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 11/12/2023 11:53:48
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Replying To tearintom: "I admire your positivity in thinking that many clubs will vote on things considering all the variables and how it affects things overall in the county." :)
I said I'd like to think that.
But I also said I wouldn't bet on it!!!!!!
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 11/12/2023 12:14:12
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the centre of excellence is fairly quiet during the months of Sept-Nov so would be in good position to host a number of u18 games midweek should the need arise.
ontheball247 (UK) - Posts: 19 - 11/12/2023 13:48:29
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Replying To ontheball247: "the centre of excellence is fairly quiet during the months of Sept-Nov so would be in good position to host a number of u18 games midweek should the need arise." On one hand, yes it would - six or seven floodlit pitches there now, so you could schedule a lot of matches for Tuesday or Wednesday evenings.
On the other hand - just four dressing rooms there, so if you had more than two matches on, at least some teams would be togging out on sidelines or in cars.
There also remains the consideration of how some 18-year-olds would have started college, and whether or not it would be reasonable to expect them to travel from Dublin or Cork or Waterford (for example) to Ferns for a minor match on a midweek evening, and then travel back again for lectures in the morning.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 11/12/2023 14:15:16
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18s motion defeated 2 to 1.
No minors playing adult for 2024 at least.
Paull (Wexford) - Posts: 187 - 11/12/2023 20:55:01
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