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Just branching this one out generally from a discussion that's taking place in one of the Wexford threads.
For context, we in Wexford are running U21 this year. We're at semi-final stage in both football and hurling, and some clubs are involved in both codes, so realistically we're looking at four more weekends to finish things off (assuming no more weekends are lost to bad weather). That brings us up to weekend of December 2/3 before things will be completed.
That's even after we played two rounds of both hurling & football midweek in July & August, during the adult championships. Some clubs and adult team managers were unhappy about younger players having to play those midweek matches in addition to adult grade matches at the weekends, due to increased risk of injury and disruption to training with the adult teams. But if we hadn't done that, we'd be four weeks behind with things, and allowing for weekends off for Christmas & New Year, it'd be the middle of January before getting things finished.
Just goes to show again there's no "good" time to play U20/U21 club championships:
- Can't play early in the year as that's the time for inter-county U20
- Can't play in May/June due to Leaving Cert and college exams
- Playing midweek during the summer leads to the sort of unhappiness in some quarters that's mentioned above
- Leaving the whole lot to October/November onwards means bad pitches, losing weekends to the weather, and potentially running into January before finishing things up.
So....heard somebody make a good point recently about U20/U21 club championships. He reckons that if we'd never had them in the first place, not too many people would be sitting around now and saying "you know what we really need? Another age grade between minor and the adult grades."
Is he right? Do we actually need these championships at club level at all any more?
How or when do other counties run them? Am particularly interested to hear how it's done in dual counties.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 07/11/2023 12:38:42
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I agree actually have seen this now in a few counties. Lots of clubs not really pushing the 21s at all in a serious way is it's coming at the end of a long year. It's definitely an after thought in many places.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8143 - 07/11/2023 13:15:16
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We are in the middle of our Under 21 championships.
Group stage in hurling and football finishing up this weekend.
The football started 3 weeks ago, hurling 2 weeks ago.
Hurling is been played at that age group for the first time in a good number of years.
I think it will be top 2 straight to final in that.
The football is top 2 through to semi finals.
I think the final for the football is pencilled in for last weekend in November.
Frank74 (Longford) - Posts: 187 - 07/11/2023 13:45:08
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Replying To Frank74: "We are in the middle of our Under 21 championships.
Group stage in hurling and football finishing up this weekend.
The football started 3 weeks ago, hurling 2 weeks ago.
Hurling is been played at that age group for the first time in a good number of years.
I think it will be top 2 straight to final in that.
The football is top 2 through to semi finals.
I think the final for the football is pencilled in for last weekend in November." How many teams in a group, and how many groups are there?
Am guessing there's not an issue with dual clubs being involved, if the hurling and football group stages are being run concurrently?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 07/11/2023 15:20:35
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I get the difficulty with the calendar and finding space for them. But I always enjoyed the u21 competitions. Not every player continues on into adult football. It's also the very last time you'll get to play solely with lads you went to school with and grew up with. Maybe I'm being a bit sentimental. I have some great memories of training away during the week at college before coming home at the weekend to play u21. I played in two u21 finals, lost both but have fond memories of the games. They were very competitive but nowhere near as tactical and serious as senior football.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 07/11/2023 16:47:28
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Replying To Lockjaw: "I get the difficulty with the calendar and finding space for them. But I always enjoyed the u21 competitions. Not every player continues on into adult football. It's also the very last time you'll get to play solely with lads you went to school with and grew up with. Maybe I'm being a bit sentimental. I have some great memories of training away during the week at college before coming home at the weekend to play u21. I played in two u21 finals, lost both but have fond memories of the games. They were very competitive but nowhere near as tactical and serious as senior football." Has to be said some of the most entertaining hurling and football games I've ever watched have been at u21/20.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 07/11/2023 17:31:48
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Just branching this one out generally from a discussion that's taking place in one of the Wexford threads.
For context, we in Wexford are running U21 this year. We're at semi-final stage in both football and hurling, and some clubs are involved in both codes, so realistically we're looking at four more weekends to finish things off (assuming no more weekends are lost to bad weather). That brings us up to weekend of December 2/3 before things will be completed.
That's even after we played two rounds of both hurling & football midweek in July & August, during the adult championships. Some clubs and adult team managers were unhappy about younger players having to play those midweek matches in addition to adult grade matches at the weekends, due to increased risk of injury and disruption to training with the adult teams. But if we hadn't done that, we'd be four weeks behind with things, and allowing for weekends off for Christmas & New Year, it'd be the middle of January before getting things finished.
Just goes to show again there's no "good" time to play U20/U21 club championships:
- Can't play early in the year as that's the time for inter-county U20
- Can't play in May/June due to Leaving Cert and college exams
- Playing midweek during the summer leads to the sort of unhappiness in some quarters that's mentioned above
- Leaving the whole lot to October/November onwards means bad pitches, losing weekends to the weather, and potentially running into January before finishing things up.
So....heard somebody make a good point recently about U20/U21 club championships. He reckons that if we'd never had them in the first place, not too many people would be sitting around now and saying "you know what we really need? Another age grade between minor and the adult grades."
Is he right? Do we actually need these championships at club level at all any more?
How or when do other counties run them? Am particularly interested to hear how it's done in dual counties." In Westmeath we played our under 19 football final last weekend and this weekend we will have our hurling final.Fixtures in a small dual county like ours are dificult with so many dual players so its largely football one week hurling the next.But the under 19 competitions are important to keep players involved.
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1592 - 07/11/2023 17:34:04
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Replying To Pikeman96: "How many teams in a group, and how many groups are there?
Am guessing there's not an issue with dual clubs being involved, if the hurling and football group stages are being run concurrently?" In the A football championship there are 7 teams and the B has 8, both split into 2 groups. We only have 3 hurling teams in the county. Our club only has a handful of dual players and the only clash of fixtures so far is this weekend. They are playing the hurling on Friday and football on Sunday.
Frank74 (Longford) - Posts: 187 - 08/11/2023 08:13:39
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Replying To Viking66: "Has to be said some of the most entertaining hurling and football games I've ever watched have been at u21/20." This is it and I think the reason that they're entertaining is down to the fact that management teams don't have months to prepare for them. So on the one hand, it's difficult shoe-horning u21 competition into an already congested calendar. But on the other, you have young lads who are probably already fit anyway, having just played senior competition, but there simply isn't time to prepare and deploy some master tactical plan. There is a bit more freedom to just go out and play off the cuff a bit more, hence the more entertaining spectacle.
I was at Goath Dobhair vs Glenswilly u21 last weekend and it was a serious game of football. Hard-hitting, good scores and the result was in doubt right up until the end.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 08/11/2023 12:35:30
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I enjoyed playing U21 myself (even though it was a long time ago now!) and agree you can of course see good games that that grade.
Am not sure though that there are very many 19, 20 and 21-year-olds who are relying on these championships for game time, on account of not having opportunities in other competitions throughout the year. Just about all would be lining out for their club's adult sides at some level or other. Another consideration is that a far higher proportion of school leavers go on to Third Level these days than used to be the case a couple of decades ago, so many more of them have the opportunity to play there too.
Am going to take Wexford as an example. A 20-year-old dual player here (where more than 90% of our players are dual) has at least 22 opportunities to play a match at adult level during the year: minimum six in County Football League, minimum six in County Hurling League, minimum five in Football Championship, and minimum five in Hurling Championship. Does he really need up to eight more at U21 (four football, four hurling) ?
Or....if 22 opportunities somehow aren't enough for a 20-year-old, then how come it's "enough" for a 22-year-old?
Realise there may not be as many opportunities to play in primarily single-code counties. That's why I said at the top that I'm particularly interested in how other dual counties manage it.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 08/11/2023 13:18:22
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Replying To Viking66: "Has to be said some of the most entertaining hurling and football games I've ever watched have been at u21/20." Have to agree u18/u19/u21 last chance for gifted players to express their abilities before over paid managers get their hands on them and coach negative, keep ball, defensive systems. Then we have supporters commenting ". Jesus He was a great minor I though he'd be a had a great future, average enough now"
royler (Meath) - Posts: 277 - 08/11/2023 13:45:21
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I'd agree some of the best club games have been at under 21 and at inter county level they have been very good also.in limerick it looks like 21 hurling won't be finished until possibly 1st or2nd week in December..from what I've seen no premier 21 football has started yet,so I don't know when this will be played..it will be an awful pity if the competition doesn't survive but it could be lost.a lot of fellas playing are now also playing third level league knock out stages.if the competition is done away with,will it be ok for fellas to go from minor straight to adult level with little or no time for them to develop physically,21 gives them a chance to do this.
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2373 - 08/11/2023 14:21:18
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Replying To CTGAA10: "I'd agree some of the best club games have been at under 21 and at inter county level they have been very good also.in limerick it looks like 21 hurling won't be finished until possibly 1st or2nd week in December..from what I've seen no premier 21 football has started yet,so I don't know when this will be played..it will be an awful pity if the competition doesn't survive but it could be lost.a lot of fellas playing are now also playing third level league knock out stages.if the competition is done away with,will it be ok for fellas to go from minor straight to adult level with little or no time for them to develop physically,21 gives them a chance to do this." That last line of yours is more relevant than you maybe realise, given the number of counties who operate minor at U18 and who are dealing with the issue of whether or not to let "second year" minors play adult grades as well.
Cork came up with an innovative solution to it last night, but that's a whole other story.
Main point here is that on the one hand, you have people saying "of course we should let second year minors play the adult grades, they're well able for it". On the other hand, there are people like yourself, wondering whether lads can go straight from minor at all. Just goes to show how it's such a difficult issue in so many places....
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 08/11/2023 17:18:55
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Pikeman most of us know plenty 17/18 year olds who wouldn't have any problem making the step up to adult hurling but others are going to need time to adjust..on the cork decision,I'd prefer to see an 18 year old play at a higher level cos I think down the grades they are more likely to receive a serious injury..down the grades are older and fellas coming to the end of careers who won't be happy with the younger fella giving them a run around..
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2373 - 09/11/2023 11:01:52
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Replying To CTGAA10: "Pikeman most of us know plenty 17/18 year olds who wouldn't have any problem making the step up to adult hurling but others are going to need time to adjust..on the cork decision,I'd prefer to see an 18 year old play at a higher level cos I think down the grades they are more likely to receive a serious injury..down the grades are older and fellas coming to the end of careers who won't be happy with the younger fella giving them a run around.." Yes, some 17- or 18-year-olds are well capable of playing at adult level, and some aren't, but that's a whole other issue.
My main point here is that by the time they hit 19 or 20, just about all are capable of playing the adult grades, and have the same number of opportunities to do so as anybody aged 22 or more. Hence - do we actually "need" U20 or U21 at club level at all?
I think it's worth continuing at inter-county level all right, as a stepping stone between underage and senior. That's because there aren't the same opportunities at inter-county to first play with a second, third or fourth team, instead of going straight in at the top level.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 09/11/2023 11:36:45
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Yes, some 17- or 18-year-olds are well capable of playing at adult level, and some aren't, but that's a whole other issue.
My main point here is that by the time they hit 19 or 20, just about all are capable of playing the adult grades, and have the same number of opportunities to do so as anybody aged 22 or more. Hence - do we actually "need" U20 or U21 at club level at all?
I think it's worth continuing at inter-county level all right, as a stepping stone between underage and senior. That's because there aren't the same opportunities at inter-county to first play with a second, third or fourth team, instead of going straight in at the top level." Agree with all that.
Maybe any County having Minor at u17 could have a u19 Competition?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1944 - 09/11/2023 12:16:50
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No, we don't. I think back to my time at that age grade and not 1 player was playing u21 who was not hurling with the adult teams in the club.
There just is not the room in the calendar and I know some lads are not playing this year who are eligible because they are playing soccer now.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1784 - 11/11/2023 09:44:09
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Replying To StoreysTash: "No, we don't. I think back to my time at that age grade and not 1 player was playing u21 who was not hurling with the adult teams in the club.
There just is not the room in the calendar and I know some lads are not playing this year who are eligible because they are playing soccer now." Good man Tash. Think you're the first to actually give a straight answer to the question I asked! :)
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 11/11/2023 20:55:46
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Replying To StoreysTash: "No, we don't. I think back to my time at that age grade and not 1 player was playing u21 who was not hurling with the adult teams in the club.
There just is not the room in the calendar and I know some lads are not playing this year who are eligible because they are playing soccer now." We had plenty of minors on our u21 team that aren't allowed to play adult so that's just not true.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 12/11/2023 15:28:21
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Good man Tash. Think you're the first to actually give a straight answer to the question I asked! :)" Straight answer as in answering no? There are plenty of lads playing u21 that aren't ready physically for playing adult. There are a good few on our u21 teams. It's a great stepping stone for these lads. I think the grade has its merits and should be kept. Is that a straight enough answer? ;-)
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 12/11/2023 15:30:56
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