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Hurling - Sobering Thoughts Of Liam Sheedy - What Should Be Done?

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "He's not criticizing everyone else, just you. Passing comment or giving an opinion on an article that you haven't read, rightly deserves such criticism!"
Where is your opinion then? He had no opinion either because he hadn't read it too.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 09/11/2023 11:11:59    2512212

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Replying To omahant:  "The thrust of Sheedy's argument is that most clubs, outside the most successful ones, do not have a lengthy meaningful schedule of games. There is more emphasis put on finishing existing game schedules rather than providing a longer programme of games for all club players - his own Portroe ending their Tipp Championship run after two games within 14 days. Current conditions discourage player participation in the GAA, and drive them to play other codes instead."
Thanks for explaining the nub of the article.
The thing is, no matter what the GAA do people will complain. Shorten the inter county window has people lamenting that the AI final should be in Sept. Play in Sept and the clubs get no chance.
It has been said before on here, a calendar needs to be worked out where clubs and county teams play throughout the year. County managers need to respect the need to have club weeks, and there were calendars created which proved that it could be done. But it can only be done with reason and fairness and county managers not shafting clubs which is not a thing they could be trusted to do.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 09/11/2023 11:38:38    2512222

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Thanks for explaining the nub of the article.
The thing is, no matter what the GAA do people will complain. Shorten the inter county window has people lamenting that the AI final should be in Sept. Play in Sept and the clubs get no chance.
It has been said before on here, a calendar needs to be worked out where clubs and county teams play throughout the year. County managers need to respect the need to have club weeks, and there were calendars created which proved that it could be done. But it can only be done with reason and fairness and county managers not shafting clubs which is not a thing they could be trusted to do."
If we go back to the "mixed" system and e.g a County team gets to an AI semi final you know and I know that most adult club Championships will be put on hold by the CB.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 09/11/2023 12:15:20    2512234

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "If we go back to the "mixed" system and e.g a County team gets to an AI semi final you know and I know that most adult club Championships will be put on hold by the CB."
Yeah ok but there are ways to do it.

They do need to cut down on the number of county games though too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 09/11/2023 13:06:38    2512251

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah ok but there are ways to do it.

They do need to cut down on the number of county games though too."
It football I think it was a mistake to bring in a tiered championship and a group stage.

An alternative was to just play the league in a better window.

You could have a regular season of league and provincials played in parallel in March to July with 4 or even 5 club weekends in each code pencilled in alongside.

Then you'd have August and September for a knockout All Ireland seeded based on league and Provincials.

Provincial champions and top 4 others from league get byes to last 16.
Provincial finalists and top 8 others from league avoid round 1.
Round 1 is with the lowest ranked 16 teams not making a Provincial final. Round 1 is played alongside the Provincial finals.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 09/11/2023 15:11:25    2512267

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "If we go back to the "mixed" system and e.g a County team gets to an AI semi final you know and I know that most adult club Championships will be put on hold by the CB."
Yes but that could be 1-2 weeks of matches missed. No county will mind that. Once the clubs have had a decent calendar to that date, no county will complain about that.
I will dig up the thread where a calendar was made.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 09/11/2023 18:55:20    2512291

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It football I think it was a mistake to bring in a tiered championship and a group stage.

An alternative was to just play the league in a better window.

You could have a regular season of league and provincials played in parallel in March to July with 4 or even 5 club weekends in each code pencilled in alongside.

Then you'd have August and September for a knockout All Ireland seeded based on league and Provincials.

Provincial champions and top 4 others from league get byes to last 16.
Provincial finalists and top 8 others from league avoid round 1.
Round 1 is with the lowest ranked 16 teams not making a Provincial final. Round 1 is played alongside the Provincial finals."
Nah. The new system is a more than decent system. Leave it alone for three seasons. Give it a chance to bed. After three years reflect on what has happened and refine the system if and as required .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6144 - 09/11/2023 23:05:39    2512305

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Thanks for explaining the nub of the article.
The thing is, no matter what the GAA do people will complain. Shorten the inter county window has people lamenting that the AI final should be in Sept. Play in Sept and the clubs get no chance.
It has been said before on here, a calendar needs to be worked out where clubs and county teams play throughout the year. County managers need to respect the need to have club weeks, and there were calendars created which proved that it could be done. But it can only be done with reason and fairness and county managers not shafting clubs which is not a thing they could be trusted to do."
You are absolutely correct. The ever increasing domination of county managers over extended county panels were the main reason for the introduction of the split season. Curb the powers of the county managers and you could easily revert to end of August/early September All Ireland finals. The powers that be in the GAA could easily do this, they were able to bring in an inter county training ban for December etc a few years ago. They could easily make regulations that clubs should have access to their county players for a specified period before a championship match. And you know it may also help, though not guaranteed, in levelling out the inter county standards as well.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 1077 - 10/11/2023 09:54:42    2512317

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Replying To MillerX:  "You are absolutely correct. The ever increasing domination of county managers over extended county panels were the main reason for the introduction of the split season. Curb the powers of the county managers and you could easily revert to end of August/early September All Ireland finals. The powers that be in the GAA could easily do this, they were able to bring in an inter county training ban for December etc a few years ago. They could easily make regulations that clubs should have access to their county players for a specified period before a championship match. And you know it may also help, though not guaranteed, in levelling out the inter county standards as well."
No!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 10/11/2023 11:58:51    2512339

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Thanks for explaining the nub of the article.
The thing is, no matter what the GAA do people will complain. Shorten the inter county window has people lamenting that the AI final should be in Sept. Play in Sept and the clubs get no chance.
It has been said before on here, a calendar needs to be worked out where clubs and county teams play throughout the year. County managers need to respect the need to have club weeks, and there were calendars created which proved that it could be done. But it can only be done with reason and fairness and county managers not shafting clubs which is not a thing they could be trusted to do."
I'm a fan of the "subject-to-tweaks" split season but with Provincial and Group Phase matches somehow merged into a shorter combined League phase regular season (Provincial matches also counting towards league points).

If reverting to a "mixed/co-mingled" season, why not have a rule that a player is ineligible for his county (say, up to AIC QFs only) if he doesn't play for his club too.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 10/11/2023 12:48:07    2512346

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It football I think it was a mistake to bring in a tiered championship and a group stage.

An alternative was to just play the league in a better window.

You could have a regular season of league and provincials played in parallel in March to July with 4 or even 5 club weekends in each code pencilled in alongside.

Then you'd have August and September for a knockout All Ireland seeded based on league and Provincials.

Provincial champions and top 4 others from league get byes to last 16.
Provincial finalists and top 8 others from league avoid round 1.
Round 1 is with the lowest ranked 16 teams not making a Provincial final. Round 1 is played alongside the Provincial finals."
I like that six-round AIC KO to end the season - it brings back the traditional spirit of the Championship KO, with the rounds structured to limit mismatches.

For the League regular season, revert to Div 1 top 16/ Div 2 bottom 16, with each team getting 10 games (including Provincial KO results).
Each 16 split into 4 seeded pots of 4 - each team plays two from each pot plus two crossover/inter-division games (incorporate 'match points' for all Provincial games).

For example, the Ulster Champ plays 3 or 4 Provincial opponents. After initially drawing up the League schedule for all teams (not knowing what Provincial KO games will emerge), certain league games could be replaced as the pots of those Provincial opponents are known.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 10/11/2023 13:36:48    2512356

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Nah. The new system is a more than decent system. Leave it alone for three seasons. Give it a chance to bed. After three years reflect on what has happened and refine the system if and as required ."
I don't know, it's quite clear that there are issues.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 10/11/2023 14:38:17    2512371

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Where is your opinion then? He had no opinion either because he hadn't read it too."
The fastest way to lose players to the games at club level is by not having them play games and not knowing when their games are going to be played. Soccer, rugby, other sports are not the enemy in that regard. The GAA was shooting itself in the foot under the old system.

The new system? Admittedly, I've only spoken to a handful of club players based in Limk, Tipp, and Kerry, so my data is no way scientifically evidence-based, but the feedback so far is that they can now plan their GAA activities around their life, instead of having to plan their lives around their GAA activities.

In situations like Sheedy mentions, the fixtures management within any given county need to make the competition more robust…more games. That his club's season was over in two weeks, or rather two games, should in no way reflect poorly in the new split season. The difference is that at least the two games were within two weeks of each other, and those players weren't left waiting after the first game in April to play their second in September: the old system produced that.

As a cousin of mine explained: we can go off to France now for 3 weeks and the lads miss no games. They can dream of being the next Gearoid Hegarty or Cian Lynch every day of the year. France, rugby, soccer, whatever will never take from that…Lack of games will, especially if your two important games are spaced 2/3/6 months apart but the player doesn't even know exactly when!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2095 - 10/11/2023 18:04:57    2512403

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "The fastest way to lose players to the games at club level is by not having them play games and not knowing when their games are going to be played. Soccer, rugby, other sports are not the enemy in that regard. The GAA was shooting itself in the foot under the old system.

The new system? Admittedly, I've only spoken to a handful of club players based in Limk, Tipp, and Kerry, so my data is no way scientifically evidence-based, but the feedback so far is that they can now plan their GAA activities around their life, instead of having to plan their lives around their GAA activities.

In situations like Sheedy mentions, the fixtures management within any given county need to make the competition more robust…more games. That his club's season was over in two weeks, or rather two games, should in no way reflect poorly in the new split season. The difference is that at least the two games were within two weeks of each other, and those players weren't left waiting after the first game in April to play their second in September: the old system produced that.

As a cousin of mine explained: we can go off to France now for 3 weeks and the lads miss no games. They can dream of being the next Gearoid Hegarty or Cian Lynch every day of the year. France, rugby, soccer, whatever will never take from that…Lack of games will, especially if your two important games are spaced 2/3/6 months apart but the player doesn't even know exactly when!"
Maybe the split season could work but the intercounty season currently is just too long. 27 weeks, it does not give time to run good county championships where teams have a good program of games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 12/11/2023 13:57:44    2512515

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Maybe the split season could work but the intercounty season currently is just too long. 27 weeks, it does not give time to run good county championships where teams have a good program of games."
Its been reduced from 37 or 38 weeks.
It won't be reduced any further.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 12/11/2023 14:25:00    2512523

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Its been reduced from 37 or 38 weeks.
It won't be reduced any further."
The 27 weeks needs to be shared with Provincial and All Ireland club somehow and then club county championship given more time.

There's too much faffing about to the football season anyway and in the hurling you could get away with the league being played alongside Provincial and All Ireland club hurling.

If you'd a roughly 10 month season with 2 months shared, 4 months for exclusive inter county (and club leagues) and 4 months for county championships, it'd be a much more fair and balanced season.

To include provincial and All Ireland club in the club time allocation when only a fraction of clubs are involved in a given year is a problem.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 13/11/2023 13:09:37    2512701

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "It's basically boils down to being a criticism of the Tipperary club championship structure, rather than anything else. Says 16 teams out of 32 across Senior & Premier Intermediate were finished after only three matches. Some of them, who lost their first two, were out of contention even sooner. And he "imagines" that it's the same in other counties.

Doesn't have to be that way. We in Wexford guarantee every club at least five championship matches, and two-thirds of clubs (eight out of twelve in each grade) get at least six. We do the same in football.

Looks to me like one of those times where a Tipp man with a certain Tipp attitude thinks the whole world should change to solve a Tipp problem that Tipp could actually solve themselves."
straight knockout - only way for it. works in Tyrone. should work everywhere else

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2092 - 13/11/2023 13:37:37    2512708

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "straight knockout - only way for it. works in Tyrone. should work everywhere else"
Reason it works in Tyrone is the value put on the league, league competitions in many counties are essentially glorified challenge games.

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 13/11/2023 21:26:58    2512828

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Replying To TerribleFootwork:  "Reason it works in Tyrone is the value put on the league, league competitions in many counties are essentially glorified challenge games."
Maybe that value is gone in many counties because they run their championship as a League though? Bit like what's happening at Intercounty the last years?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13866 - 14/11/2023 10:58:37    2512895

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Replying To omahant:  "I'm a fan of the "subject-to-tweaks" split season but with Provincial and Group Phase matches somehow merged into a shorter combined League phase regular season (Provincial matches also counting towards league points).

If reverting to a "mixed/co-mingled" season, why not have a rule that a player is ineligible for his county (say, up to AIC QFs only) if he doesn't play for his club too."
Because he might have a "hamstring strain and needs to let it heal before the next inter county game".....according to the dictator (county manager)

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 14/11/2023 11:17:18    2512912

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