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Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

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Replying To sligo joe:  "If I was a Louth man I'd be backing the County board 100%. There is a flagship senior County team there and a very positive feeling among the supporters, especially the youth. It's so important for Louth to nurture that positivity and obviously they know Devlin well and rate him so for me his appointment is not laughable(forever whatever) at all."
It's a sad day when people are commending and lauding a county for employing and outside coach to look after their youth structures…. It's no wonder the games in the state it's in when the like of this is happening… The GAA would be better served putting a stop to this sort of nonsense rather than making up silly rule changes….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3027 - 19/07/2024 12:07:21    2560046

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "It's a sad day when people are commending and lauding a county for employing and outside coach to look after their youth structures…. It's no wonder the games in the state it's in when the like of this is happening… The GAA would be better served putting a stop to this sort of nonsense rather than making up silly rule changes…."
It is indeed a sad day but I think you love sadness and negativity. We should all go back to the days when you picked your team from whoever turned up, pile 15 lads into the back of a van for matches, change in hedges, great days. It was a sad day when a county player made a Cameo appearance on a hurling team so he could play county football .

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2150 - 19/07/2024 12:41:04    2560054

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Replying To Saynothing:  "It is indeed a sad day but I think you love sadness and negativity. We should all go back to the days when you picked your team from whoever turned up, pile 15 lads into the back of a van for matches, change in hedges, great days. It was a sad day when a county player made a Cameo appearance on a hurling team so he could play county football ."
What sort of bull **** are you waffling on about… nobody is suggesting anything like that.. Indeed that was a sad day when the player appeared in a hurling match… I'm glad you brought that up as this was done by a CB to facilitate a highly paid outside manager… the type you seem to agree with…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3027 - 19/07/2024 13:13:31    2560062

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Replying To Aibrean:  "I concede that you have a point: no conclusions were reached.

However, in listing the issues (if not 'problems') 'passing' comes first and is followed by about 8 other issues. Accordingly, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the authors of the report considered that 'passing' was the number 1 issue.

Again, I accept that the word 'problems' is not mentioned in the Report. However, surely the whole point of the report is to identify 'problems', 'problem areas', 'issues', or, whatever word you think appropriate, as a start to finding solutions. The Report is hardly about non-issues.

And, regardless of what the Report says, or does not say, about handpasses, my point, at this stage, is that the leaks from the Gavin Committee don't seem to include any measure that would encourage kicking over handpassing. Which I find discouraging."
And still the proposals from the FRC do nothing to address the handpassing scourge. I can't understand it; can anyone?

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 304 - 11/09/2024 15:44:40    2569433

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Replying To Aibrean:  "And still the proposals from the FRC do nothing to address the handpassing scourge. I can't understand it; can anyone?"
They all seem to be afraid to touch the greatest scourge of all, that feckin handpassing.
And enforce 4 step rule.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 11/09/2024 16:07:08    2569435

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Replying To Aibrean:  "And still the proposals from the FRC do nothing to address the handpassing scourge. I can't understand it; can anyone?"
Unbelievable. The elephant in the room being simply ignored.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 11/09/2024 20:29:57    2569456

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Replying To Aibrean:  "And still the proposals from the FRC do nothing to address the handpassing scourge. I can't understand it; can anyone?"
I think a lot of the proposals have been taken from basketball. Let's remember that Jim Gavin himself brought basketball playbooks into football to combat the blanket defence. I guess they see limiting hand passing works go against this?

But practically how do you limit hand passing? How about you must kick the ball after receiving a hand pass? Surely with a try?

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 352 - 12/09/2024 13:53:38    2569558

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Replying To brianb:  "I think a lot of the proposals have been taken from basketball. Let's remember that Jim Gavin himself brought basketball playbooks into football to combat the blanket defence. I guess they see limiting hand passing works go against this?

But practically how do you limit hand passing? How about you must kick the ball after receiving a hand pass? Surely with a try?"
Not a rule change but first teach young players the skills of kicking off both feet and the stamina benefits of not running up and down the pitch over-handpassing the ball for the game. Was at my daughter's Feile during the summer. In one game they were getting well beaten. Could hear the opposition coach saying they were very good keeping posession through handpassing but their shooting was letting them down. How can their shooting be good when they're not being encouraged to kick the ball more? Need to be let make their mistakes and try to improve rather than the rely on the quickfix easier solution of handpassing which I think isn't such a skill. When rules change it might improve things but we'll still have risk averse coaches and referees who interpret rules inconsistently and will and won't let games flow.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7651 - 12/09/2024 14:19:35    2569564

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Replying To brianb:  "I think a lot of the proposals have been taken from basketball. Let's remember that Jim Gavin himself brought basketball playbooks into football to combat the blanket defence. I guess they see limiting hand passing works go against this?

But practically how do you limit hand passing? How about you must kick the ball after receiving a hand pass? Surely with a try?"
Yes, 'kick the ball after receiving a handpass' looks like a good simple solution.

This was actually trialled in the Autumn of 2018 but not continued for the League in 2019.

And, the strange thing is: Jim Gavin, then Dublin Manager, was in favour of retaining the new rule.

"Dublin boss Jim Gavin believes the controversial hand-pass rule should have been kept for the league, and said managers should not have a "soap box" to change any decisions handed down by the GAA".

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0127/1025860-gavin-managers-shouldnt-get-soap-box-to-change-rules/

And, at risk of repeating myself, handpassing seemed to be the main issue to be addressed per the John Tobin Report which resulted in the setting up of Jim Gavin's FRC.

It's a mystery.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 304 - 12/09/2024 14:26:30    2569569

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Not a rule change but first teach young players the skills of kicking off both feet and the stamina benefits of not running up and down the pitch over-handpassing the ball for the game. Was at my daughter's Feile during the summer. In one game they were getting well beaten. Could hear the opposition coach saying they were very good keeping posession through handpassing but their shooting was letting them down. How can their shooting be good when they're not being encouraged to kick the ball more? Need to be let make their mistakes and try to improve rather than the rely on the quickfix easier solution of handpassing which I think isn't such a skill. When rules change it might improve things but we'll still have risk averse coaches and referees who interpret rules inconsistently and will and won't let games flow."
I definitely think at under age up to and including under 16 a player should only be allowed 2 plays before they have move the ball if the young kids are encouraged to kick the ball once they get older hopefully majority will still do it I genuinely think coaches have a lot to answer for unfortunately most onlt want win no real interest in developing players skills or helping them in that way as for the development squads pure box ticking exercises firsr thing once squad is picked they get gym program I guarantee u if a child goes into these developing squads at under 14 level and goes following year 15 then 16 and following year thet be minor very few if any will be able kick with both feet solo with both feet keep there head up and decision making ,, all them squads are finished now so most kids will not play football from sept untol prib March makes no sense at all

Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 953 - 12/09/2024 15:07:08    2569574

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Replying To Aibrean:  "Yes, 'kick the ball after receiving a handpass' looks like a good simple solution.

This was actually trialled in the Autumn of 2018 but not continued for the League in 2019.

And, the strange thing is: Jim Gavin, then Dublin Manager, was in favour of retaining the new rule.

"Dublin boss Jim Gavin believes the controversial hand-pass rule should have been kept for the league, and said managers should not have a "soap box" to change any decisions handed down by the GAA".

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0127/1025860-gavin-managers-shouldnt-get-soap-box-to-change-rules/

And, at risk of repeating myself, handpassing seemed to be the main issue to be addressed per the John Tobin Report which resulted in the setting up of Jim Gavin's FRC.

It's a mystery."
Firstly Jim Gavin is just one member of the review committee. Secondly he wanted the "receive from a handpass, must kick" trial to be continued into the league not necessarily retained permanently.
Thirdly, as pointed out before , Tobin's committee reported on statistical trends in the game and did not identify or label any trend as an "issue".

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 793 - 12/09/2024 16:12:36    2569589

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "With an attitude like that it's no wonder football is in the dire state it's in… kicking off the ground was always a great skill in the game…and you claim to be some kind of coach… They should just let 45's be kicked from the hand as well to make life easier for lazy coaches like yourself…,"
Agreed; and the other issue with kicks from the hand is that the ball is never kicked from where the free is awarded. Everyone steals a few metres, and makes the angle easier. Joke. Frees off the ground is a real skill, most players in any generation cannot do it very well for longer frees.

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 275 - 12/09/2024 16:34:54    2569593

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To me, all the new changes looks great, and I'm looking forward to seeing them in games.

I'd only have 2 minor criticisms:

- role of the goalie (as with Morgan, Beggan etc) is being curtailed. Why? Scary to watch on occasion, but great crack too, esp seeing a goalie running like h*** to get back lol. Adds excitement and entertainment, so surely OK as is.

- the penalty replacement and this sort of golden score alternative. Big issue there is that scores from frees are not excluded. So it becomes very easy for a ref with an axe to grind to award a couple of soft frees and win the game that way. At least with penalties, there's not much a ref can do to throw the game.

Otherwise excellent changes all round I think.

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 275 - 12/09/2024 16:46:09    2569594

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "They all seem to be afraid to touch the greatest scourge of all, that feckin handpassing.
And enforce 4 step rule."
I just think that limiting hand passing only encourages an opposing blanket defense and it's the blanket defense that's actually the real scourge.

The other issue is that teams know that there's a tight scoring zone and also a lot of space on the pitch where possession isn't that valuable. Outside of the very best teams there's little incentive to press high and so there's no pressure on the ball.

Some of the worst passages of play are initiated by backwards foot passing. It maybe should be outlawed. Can't kick it behind the line you're in, unless you're inside the 21 or something.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 12/09/2024 17:17:42    2569603

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Legitimate contest for possession. The key to it all and no proposal to address its deficiency in the game. Changes to overtime penalties etc get the media talking but are distractions

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1121 - 13/09/2024 16:03:11    2569739

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Replying To Kickitout:  "I definitely think at under age up to and including under 16 a player should only be allowed 2 plays before they have move the ball if the young kids are encouraged to kick the ball once they get older hopefully majority will still do it I genuinely think coaches have a lot to answer for unfortunately most onlt want win no real interest in developing players skills or helping them in that way as for the development squads pure box ticking exercises firsr thing once squad is picked they get gym program I guarantee u if a child goes into these developing squads at under 14 level and goes following year 15 then 16 and following year thet be minor very few if any will be able kick with both feet solo with both feet keep there head up and decision making ,, all them squads are finished now so most kids will not play football from sept untol prib March makes no sense at all"
Most coaches from U8 to U18 don't understand the purpose of underage coaching.
Most don't even know how to coach the skills of the game.

Most U14-U18 teams are now on a gym programme and spend 3 months in pre season fitness training.
I have yet to hear of a single club doing pre season skills training, or giving their players and off season skills programme to follow.

Any ejit can get a team fit, a proper coach improves the players skills and understanding of how to play the game.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 15/09/2024 08:05:44    2569909

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Replying To sligo joe:  "
Replying To Aibrean:  "Yes, 'kick the ball after receiving a handpass' looks like a good simple solution.

This was actually trialled in the Autumn of 2018 but not continued for the League in 2019.

And, the strange thing is: Jim Gavin, then Dublin Manager, was in favour of retaining the new rule.

"Dublin boss Jim Gavin believes the controversial hand-pass rule should have been kept for the league, and said managers should not have a "soap box" to change any decisions handed down by the GAA".

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0127/1025860-gavin-managers-shouldnt-get-soap-box-to-change-rules/

And, at risk of repeating myself, handpassing seemed to be the main issue to be addressed per the John Tobin Report which resulted in the setting up of Jim Gavin's FRC.

It's a mystery."
Firstly Jim Gavin is just one member of the review committee. Secondly he wanted the "receive from a handpass, must kick" trial to be continued into the league not necessarily retained permanently.
Thirdly, as pointed out before , Tobin's committee reported on statistical trends in the game and did not identify or label any trend as an "issue"."
OK, let's forget about Jim Gavin and John Tobin for a moment.

As far as I can see, just about everyone thinks that the prevalence of hand passing - 3.3 times as many hand passes as kicks - is 'not a good thing' and is contributing hugely to the 'boring' aspect of the game. Accordingly, I think it odd that the FRC is not addressing this issue.

In short, are we happy with the current game of handball or should we return to football?

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 304 - 20/09/2024 21:52:12    2571066

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Replying To Aibrean:  "
Replying To sligo joe:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "Yes, 'kick the ball after receiving a handpass' looks like a good simple solution.

This was actually trialled in the Autumn of 2018 but not continued for the League in 2019.

And, the strange thing is: Jim Gavin, then Dublin Manager, was in favour of retaining the new rule.

"Dublin boss Jim Gavin believes the controversial hand-pass rule should have been kept for the league, and said managers should not have a "soap box" to change any decisions handed down by the GAA".

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0127/1025860-gavin-managers-shouldnt-get-soap-box-to-change-rules/

And, at risk of repeating myself, handpassing seemed to be the main issue to be addressed per the John Tobin Report which resulted in the setting up of Jim Gavin's FRC.

It's a mystery."
Firstly Jim Gavin is just one member of the review committee. Secondly he wanted the "receive from a handpass, must kick" trial to be continued into the league not necessarily retained permanently.
Thirdly, as pointed out before , Tobin's committee reported on statistical trends in the game and did not identify or label any trend as an "issue"."
OK, let's forget about Jim Gavin and John Tobin for a moment.

As far as I can see, just about everyone thinks that the prevalence of hand passing - 3.3 times as many hand passes as kicks - is 'not a good thing' and is contributing hugely to the 'boring' aspect of the game. Accordingly, I think it odd that the FRC is not addressing this issue.

In short, are we happy with the current game of handball or should we return to football?"]We need to coach teams to be more flaithiúlach with possession. That's a lot of what made 'old' football 'great', the regular jousts for 50:50 or 60:40 possession in all sectors of the field.

It's the more logical (but boring) concentration on possession retention, coupled with the Jim McGuinness blueprint on defending, that has caused the prevalence of handpassing in the current game.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3875 - 24/09/2024 12:41:29    2571604

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Most coaches from U8 to U18 don't understand the purpose of underage coaching.
Most don't even know how to coach the skills of the game.

Most U14-U18 teams are now on a gym programme and spend 3 months in pre season fitness training.
I have yet to hear of a single club doing pre season skills training, or giving their players and off season skills programme to follow.

Any ejit can get a team fit, a proper coach improves the players skills and understanding of how to play the game."
As I have pointed out hundreds of times… most modern coaches at adult level have the game of Gaelic football ruined… all based on fitness and ball retention …and to think most of them demand payment as well….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3027 - 24/09/2024 19:18:12    2571666

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Replying To sligo joe:  "
Replying To Aibrean:  "Yes, 'kick the ball after receiving a handpass' looks like a good simple solution.

This was actually trialled in the Autumn of 2018 but not continued for the League in 2019.

And, the strange thing is: Jim Gavin, then Dublin Manager, was in favour of retaining the new rule.

"Dublin boss Jim Gavin believes the controversial hand-pass rule should have been kept for the league, and said managers should not have a "soap box" to change any decisions handed down by the GAA".

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0127/1025860-gavin-managers-shouldnt-get-soap-box-to-change-rules/

And, at risk of repeating myself, handpassing seemed to be the main issue to be addressed per the John Tobin Report which resulted in the setting up of Jim Gavin's FRC.

It's a mystery."
Firstly Jim Gavin is just one member of the review committee. Secondly he wanted the "receive from a handpass, must kick" trial to be continued into the league not necessarily retained permanently.
Thirdly, as pointed out before , Tobin's committee reported on statistical trends in the game and did not identify or label any trend as an "issue"."
Ok, but what have you to say about the subject of the discussion: the handpass? Are you happy with the way things are?

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 304 - 24/09/2024 20:20:50    2571675

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