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The 2 most important criteria in those elitist fee paying schools
1 Parents' wealth
2 ability at rugby.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 19/10/2023 11:02:10
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To BarneyGrant: "[quote=Viking66: "[quote=Ned_Stormcrow: "Some posters have a very negative mindsets (people I tend to avoid in life) and can't wait to criticise some of our top sports people and people who support them.
I think the main issue is the blatant exaggeration and hyperbole that the media whip up at every world cup about the Irish rugby team. Not only do we have no pedigree in this tournament, but the media had us almost lined up as WC winners, before we had even played NZ. Now for someone who is not from rugby stock (i.e. most people) taking a casual interest in the WC, they would have seen the following:
1. Non stop hype, wall to wall coverage, world's no1. ranked team etc etc
2. Another QF exit.
There is a boy who cried wolf scenario here. In addition to that, there lack of criticism of the team when they fail to deliver is patently clear. The Irish Independent called their performance against NZ "brave beyond words". Read that again - "brave beyond words". Well if having an extra player for 25% of the game and still coming up short against a NZ team who we're told is a pale shadow of their former selves is "brave beyond words" then we've lost a sense of reality here. People who are not on the bandwagon (and thats a lot of people, despite what one might think given the wall to wall coverage) are looking at this stuff without green tinted glasses and thinking that perhaps, just perhaps there is a problem with hype, expectation, and sadly, arrogance from the media.
Of course, this is no reflection on the team, or indeed the sport itself, it is unfortunate that the lads have to deal with a media who does them no favours." That is the reality. For the 1st time in 120 odd years we have had a team the last few years who are AS GOOD AS the All Blacks. We lost a 1 score game. We could've just as easily won it by a score. There's nothing currently between NZ, SA, France and ourselves. That's really good for us as historically we wouldn't be in the same league as them. But it doesn't justify the level of expectation there was in the media and population at large."
Are Kilkenny better than Limerick?"]They currently are as good as the All Blacks. Kilkenny aren't as good as Limerick. But wouldn't be any better than Clare tbh."]Not as good as Galway either, never beat them in a Leinster group game to date, but tend to pip them for Leinster silverware despite this.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3875 - 19/10/2023 11:04:54
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: " Replying To Viking66: "[quote=BarneyGrant: "[quote=Viking66: "[quote=Ned_Stormcrow: "Some posters have a very negative mindsets (people I tend to avoid in life) and can't wait to criticise some of our top sports people and people who support them.
I think the main issue is the blatant exaggeration and hyperbole that the media whip up at every world cup about the Irish rugby team. Not only do we have no pedigree in this tournament, but the media had us almost lined up as WC winners, before we had even played NZ. Now for someone who is not from rugby stock (i.e. most people) taking a casual interest in the WC, they would have seen the following:
1. Non stop hype, wall to wall coverage, world's no1. ranked team etc etc
2. Another QF exit.
There is a boy who cried wolf scenario here. In addition to that, there lack of criticism of the team when they fail to deliver is patently clear. The Irish Independent called their performance against NZ "brave beyond words". Read that again - "brave beyond words". Well if having an extra player for 25% of the game and still coming up short against a NZ team who we're told is a pale shadow of their former selves is "brave beyond words" then we've lost a sense of reality here. People who are not on the bandwagon (and thats a lot of people, despite what one might think given the wall to wall coverage) are looking at this stuff without green tinted glasses and thinking that perhaps, just perhaps there is a problem with hype, expectation, and sadly, arrogance from the media.
Of course, this is no reflection on the team, or indeed the sport itself, it is unfortunate that the lads have to deal with a media who does them no favours." That is the reality. For the 1st time in 120 odd years we have had a team the last few years who are AS GOOD AS the All Blacks. We lost a 1 score game. We could've just as easily won it by a score. There's nothing currently between NZ, SA, France and ourselves. That's really good for us as historically we wouldn't be in the same league as them. But it doesn't justify the level of expectation there was in the media and population at large."
Are Kilkenny better than Limerick?"]They currently are as good as the All Blacks. Kilkenny aren't as good as Limerick. But wouldn't be any better than Clare tbh."]Not as good as Galway either, never beat them in a Leinster group game to date, but tend to pip them for Leinster silverware despite this."]They are not as good as All Blacks. They played them in a quarter final and were beaten by them despite being numerically advantaged - much bigger advantage in rugby than most sports - for 25% of the match.
Delusionary to claim they are as good, Not even the precious rankings we heard about every day for a year recognise any parity now.
Clare beat Limerick earlier in the year. Are they as good as Limerick? Are Roscommon as good as Dublin footballers?
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3118 - 19/10/2023 12:51:08
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "The 2 most important criteria in those elitist fee paying schools
1 Parents' wealth
2 ability at rugby." Based on zero experience of anything in those schools
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 19/10/2023 13:39:00
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Can't get my head around Ireland being ranked number 1 in the world and everyone jumping on the hype train.
We bet a few of the world's top sides in what we're as good as friendly matches. We lost the first knockout game we played against a team that are supposed to be no good.
Low2Joe (Wexford) - Posts: 54 - 19/10/2023 14:31:36
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Replying To Low2Joe: "Can't get my head around Ireland being ranked number 1 in the world and everyone jumping on the hype train.
We bet a few of the world's top sides in what we're as good as friendly matches. We lost the first knockout game we played against a team that are supposed to be no good." When someone is talking about these "friendlies" it suggests 1 of 2 things.
1. They haven't a clue about Rugby
2. Their part of this bizarre recent phenomenon of not liking rugby (which is fair enough) but being obsessed with it at the same time, most high profile example being a former journalist of the year now living in Brazil who is now reduced to a social media basketcase.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 19/10/2023 15:45:19
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Replying To Low2Joe: "Can't get my head around Ireland being ranked number 1 in the world and everyone jumping on the hype train.
We bet a few of the world's top sides in what we're as good as friendly matches. We lost the first knockout game we played against a team that are supposed to be no good." Except theyre not as good as Friendly matches. They're treated more Importantly by players, coaches, the unions involved and fans.
What team did we play in knockout that was no good?
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 19/10/2023 15:55:19
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Replying To Low2Joe: "Can't get my head around Ireland being ranked number 1 in the world and everyone jumping on the hype train.
We bet a few of the world's top sides in what we're as good as friendly matches. We lost the first knockout game we played against a team that are supposed to be no good." If they're supposed to be no good, it does beg the question as to why we hired and picked 3 New Zealanders for our back7.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3875 - 19/10/2023 16:01:31
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Replying To Low2Joe: "Can't get my head around Ireland being ranked number 1 in the world and everyone jumping on the hype train.
We bet a few of the world's top sides in what we're as good as friendly matches. We lost the first knockout game we played against a team that are supposed to be no good." No such thing as friendly matches. 6 Nations is the oldest tournament in world rugby. The 3rd test in NZ decided who won the series. Take it you aren't really into rugby?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13866 - 19/10/2023 16:15:34
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "When someone is talking about these "friendlies" it suggests 1 of 2 things.
1. They haven't a clue about Rugby
2. Their part of this bizarre recent phenomenon of not liking rugby (which is fair enough) but being obsessed with it at the same time, most high profile example being a former journalist of the year now living in Brazil who is now reduced to a social media basketcase." It is not a recent phenomenon, but its resilience is connected to the fact that "the team of us" thing is coming from an insular class of people who dominate the public discourse here through the media,
Some of them openly sneer at the county GAA teams of their own home place, Indeed two RTÉ journalists attempted to organise the banning of the championships during the lockdown. A lockdown during which rugby and even women's professional soccer continued unhindered, even for internationals!
Not surprising that some people engage in schadenfreude when they get beat.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3118 - 19/10/2023 16:19:16
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Replying To KillingFields: "Except theyre not as good as Friendly matches. They're treated more Importantly by players, coaches, the unions involved and fans.
What team did we play in knockout that was no good?" Strange how we perform in these other games and then in knockout games against these top teams we fall flat on our faces. Maybe unfair to say New Zealand are no good but they were certainly not rated coming into the world cup. I expected better seen as we were apparently the No1 team in the world.
Bloody disappointing is all.
Low2Joe (Wexford) - Posts: 54 - 19/10/2023 19:05:25
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Replying To KillingFields: "They will be dominated in Leinster and then the Munster players from Cork by fee schools as by and large players from those schools train more and get coached by higher standatd of coaches than those elsewhere." Irish rugby since the turn of the century has being stronger than ever before, the structure Irish rugby evolved into in the professional era has proved to be very successful.
By the structure I mean the fee paying schools providing very well coached players for (only) 4 provincial teams which then feed into the national squad.
The level of coaching available now a days I would imagine had moved on a lot from the amateur era and the private schools have the money to get top coaches in.
Having all players centrally contracted so their game time is managed to prioritise the most important matches really helps also.
Also the fact that a public who largely have never played rugby have bought into watching it at international and provincial level has helped a lot and brought in a lot of money to help pay for the provincial/ international set ups.
But so far the success of the Irish rugby team this century has not resulted in loads of new rugby clubs and the numbers playing rugby is still way below GAA.
That's the point I'm making, as per the above description, Irish rugby success this century so far isn't really having much of a negative impact on the GAA.
GreenMan1987 (Meath) - Posts: 50 - 19/10/2023 21:31:57
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Replying To Viking66: "No such thing as friendly matches. 6 Nations is the oldest tournament in world rugby. The 3rd test in NZ decided who won the series. Take it you aren't really into rugby?" 6 nations is a tournament and should be never labelled as challenges. Test games on the other hand? Yes New Zealand don't like losing on their home patch but the World Cup knock out tie they were always going to be the most focused for. Would have better had Ireland to lose that test.
Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3487 - 19/10/2023 23:00:27
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "It is not a recent phenomenon, but its resilience is connected to the fact that "the team of us" thing is coming from an insular class of people who dominate the public discourse here through the media,
Some of them openly sneer at the county GAA teams of their own home place, Indeed two RTÉ journalists attempted to organise the banning of the championships during the lockdown. A lockdown during which rugby and even women's professional soccer continued unhindered, even for internationals!
Not surprising that some people engage in schadenfreude when they get beat." Ha yet another person who gets triggered by a bloody advertising campaign!
I bet whoever came up with that or some of the others will be delighted...
You can't compare pro athletes and amateur athletes especially during the lockdown and bringing that up has zero relevance to now.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 19/10/2023 23:21:08
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Replying To Gaa_lover: "6 nations is a tournament and should be never labelled as challenges. Test games on the other hand? Yes New Zealand don't like losing on their home patch but the World Cup knock out tie they were always going to be the most focused for. Would have better had Ireland to lose that test." If test series weren't hugely important to the all blacks I'm sure they'd of lost more than 4 in 120 odd years. Cricket is still the same way. Test matches are still the pinnacle of the game for most. World Cups are just a bit of fun and a money spinner.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13866 - 20/10/2023 09:47:56
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Replying To Viking66: "If test series weren't hugely important to the all blacks I'm sure they'd of lost more than 4 in 120 odd years. Cricket is still the same way. Test matches are still the pinnacle of the game for most. World Cups are just a bit of fun and a money spinner." Test more important in Cricket. World Cup is the pinnacle for the sport of Rugby and Ireland reaching no semi final since the introduction of that tournament is a truly awful record. Scotland nearly as bad only reaching the semi finals once. All six nations teams should be reaching at least 3 semi final sure even Argentina have managed to reach the last 4 three times in their history now.
Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3487 - 20/10/2023 12:24:49
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Replying To Gaa_lover: "Test more important in Cricket. World Cup is the pinnacle for the sport of Rugby and Ireland reaching no semi final since the introduction of that tournament is a truly awful record. Scotland nearly as bad only reaching the semi finals once. All six nations teams should be reaching at least 3 semi final sure even Argentina have managed to reach the last 4 three times in their history now." I think if Argentina played in every 4/5/6 Nations since they started over 100 years ago they would have less wooden spoons than Ireland or Scotland. What do you mean by "even Argentina"?
The World Cup is hard to win. Only 1 NH team has ever won it, and historically we aren't even one of the big 3 NH teams. Getting to a semifinal is easier depending on what draw you get, which is largely down to luck. England are in a semifinal this year without playing anyone good on current form for example. Too much is made of not getting past the QF when that was partly down to the draw this time, and injuries the last time.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13866 - 20/10/2023 12:52:21
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Replying To GreenMan1987: "Irish rugby since the turn of the century has being stronger than ever before, the structure Irish rugby evolved into in the professional era has proved to be very successful.
By the structure I mean the fee paying schools providing very well coached players for (only) 4 provincial teams which then feed into the national squad.
The level of coaching available now a days I would imagine had moved on a lot from the amateur era and the private schools have the money to get top coaches in.
Having all players centrally contracted so their game time is managed to prioritise the most important matches really helps also.
Also the fact that a public who largely have never played rugby have bought into watching it at international and provincial level has helped a lot and brought in a lot of money to help pay for the provincial/ international set ups.
But so far the success of the Irish rugby team this century has not resulted in loads of new rugby clubs and the numbers playing rugby is still way below GAA.
That's the point I'm making, as per the above description, Irish rugby success this century so far isn't really having much of a negative impact on the GAA." Yeah with just the 4 provinces they can manage a professional environment. I doubt the IRFU could handle 5 or 6 teams.
Scotland has just 2 professional teams. Edinburgh and Glasgow Warriors. That's a very small base for the International team. A few play in England and France but they need more teams. Scotland have never won the Six Nations.
FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2824 - 20/10/2023 13:05:01
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Replying To Gaa_lover: "Test more important in Cricket. World Cup is the pinnacle for the sport of Rugby and Ireland reaching no semi final since the introduction of that tournament is a truly awful record. Scotland nearly as bad only reaching the semi finals once. All six nations teams should be reaching at least 3 semi final sure even Argentina have managed to reach the last 4 three times in their history now." You could argue Scotland have a worse record, they have only reached the quarter finals in 1 of the last 4 rugby world cups (including failing to get to quarter finals in last 2 tournaments).
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 20/10/2023 14:22:01
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Replying To Viking66: "I think if Argentina played in every 4/5/6 Nations since they started over 100 years ago they would have less wooden spoons than Ireland or Scotland. What do you mean by "even Argentina"?
The World Cup is hard to win. Only 1 NH team has ever won it, and historically we aren't even one of the big 3 NH teams. Getting to a semifinal is easier depending on what draw you get, which is largely down to luck. England are in a semifinal this year without playing anyone good on current form for example. Too much is made of not getting past the QF when that was partly down to the draw this time, and injuries the last time." Taking this rugby world cup in isolation there is no big shame in how Ireland performed. But in the 6 nations era (Italy joined in 2000 to make 6 teams) Ireland are consistently one of the best teams in the six nations and we have won more matches in this competition than any other (see link https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/11xdo1l/6_nations_all_time_table_full/).
Being consistently one of the best teams in Six nations it is amazing the Irish rugby team has never made a WC semi. The other countries in 6 nations who are competitive have a lot better historical record than Ireland. Its very hard to explain.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 20/10/2023 15:09:06
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