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A few people are questioning the incentive for winning the provincial championships. It's understandable where the Connacht and Leinster CEOs are coming from. If the provincial winners went directly to the quarter-finals though, they are at risk of elimination after one loss. If the provincial runners-up, Tailteann winner and 7 league qualifiers are in groups of 3, one team is getting a bye in each round.
Option 1: Provincial winners direct to quarter-finals and groups of 3 for provincial runners-up, Tailteann winner and 7 league qualifiers.
Option 2: 4 groups of 4 with provincial winners hosting the group stage. Provincial winners with 3 home games. All other teams with 1 home game.
Option 2 seems to be the better option unless anyone has a better suggestion.
Years ago Mickey Harte wanted a Champions Round. The idea was that the Champions Round winner would go through to the semi-finals and the two losers would play two qualifiers in the quarter-finals. If this option was to come on the table again, 7 league qualifiers and the Tailteann winner would enter in Round 1. The 4 winners would then take on the provincial runners-up in Round 2. The Provincial Champions Round winner would go to the semi-finals. The Champions Round loses would take on two Round 2 winners in Round 3.
Weekend A: Connacht and Munster finals.
Weekend B: Leinster and Ulster finals.
Weekend 1: All-Ireland Round 1 (8 teams: Tailteann winner and 7 league qualifiers.)
Weekend 2: All-Ireland Round 2 (8 teams: Provincial runners-up and Round 1 winners.)
Weekend 3: Provincial Hurling Finals.
Weekend 4: Provincial Champions Round (4 provincial winners) and All-Ireland Round 3 (4 round 2 winner).
Weekend 5: All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-finals
Weekend 6: All-Ireland Football Quarter-finals (4 teams: Champions Round losers and Round 3 winners.)
Weekend 7: All-Ireland Hurling Semi-finals.
Weekend 8: All-Ireland Football Semi-finals.
Weekend 9: All-Ireland Hurling Final.
Weekend 10: All-Ireland Football Final.
Tailteann Cup: (16 teams, double elimination format)
Weekend B: Round 1 of 16 teams.
Weekend 1: Round 2A of 8 winners and Round 2B of 8 losers.
Weekend 2: Round 3 of 4 Round 2A losers and 4 Round 2B winners.
Weekend 3: Provincial Hurling Finals.
Weekend 4: Tailteann Quarter-finals
Weekend 5: All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-finals
Weekend 6: Tailteann Semi-finals.
Weekend 7: All-Ireland Hurling Semi-finals.
Weekend 8: Tailteann Final.
Weekend 9: All-Ireland Hurling Final.
Weekend 10: All-Ireland Football Final.
It seems an unnecessary step however to remove the current group stage. Galway and Kerry both lost in the group stage and had an opportunity to bounce back. Galway lost to Armagh in the group stage and the lost to Mayo in Salthill. I don't think the Connacht champions exiting at the group stage should be a catalyst for abandoning the current format. It understandable though that the incentive for winning the provincial championships is being questioned.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8274 - 24/01/2024 17:09:52
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Stop with the convuluted formats. I'd just have 3 tiers of 12, 10, 10. 2 up, 2 down between each. But just leave the current format alone for now.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 745 - 24/01/2024 19:32:59
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Replying To Whammo86: "What's the issue with yo-yoing , give a team a good program of games and getting up there should have benefited them anyway and if they do retain their level then they'll be all the better again. I've seen examples in club football where teams are content with maintaining their status needing only to win a match to do so and it overall not being great for standards." The yoyoing teams in the Lein SHC seem to have an issue - they would rather stay up and have consistent opposition in consecutive years.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 25/01/2024 00:55:09
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Connacht and Leinster CEOs John Prenty and Michael Reynolds are calling for tweaks to be made to provide greater incentive for winning the provincial championships. They are suggesting that provincial winners go straight to the quarter-finals.
Are there alternative options that are more appropriate? Provincial winners could be given home advantage for all 3 group games. Their opponents then would get 1 home game each." You don't like my 'crossover' four groups of four, drawn after Prov QFs?
Example - Ulster SF 4 are spread one to each group, so crossover SFs and Final are scheduled in.
QF and 1st rd losers also spread across groups, but group drawn is different to teams they played (to preserve crossover).
Prov Champ earns 6 match pts for 3 wins (or 8 for 4) as part of a 12-match schedule (Kerry might earn only 4 pts from 2 Munster ties, but it doesn't matter, they play 10 others for a total 12 games too).
Prov results are meaningful, AIC is balanced and the Prov councils should be happy because the Prov matches are being played - what's not to like? - really tell me, punch a hole in my boat, or tell me you've found one.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 25/01/2024 01:11:33
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Replying To Whammo86: "Out of interest did you find last season exciting?
I struggled to get into the All Ireland until Mayo played Galway to be honest." But yet, best to leave things as they are until we look at it again well, well down the line - makes no sense.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 25/01/2024 01:23:36
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Replying To legendzxix: "2023
Round 1: Donegal beat Clare and Derry drew with Monaghan.
Round 2: Monaghan beat Clare and Derry beat Donegal.
Derry 3
Monaghan 3
Donegal 2
Clare 0. Clare were knocked out after Round 2.
2023 alternative:
Round 1: Donegal beat Clare and Derry drew with Monaghan. Round 1 winners should avoid each other in Round 2, with flexible scheduling after Round 1. As Derry and Monaghan drew, Derry take the place of winner for the fixture scheduling as they are the higher seed.
Round 2: Derry beat Clare and Donegal beat Monaghan.
Donegal 4
Derry 3
Monaghan 1
Clare 0
Round 3: Derry v Donegal is then a quarter-final playoff. Clare v Monaghan is an elimination playoff.
The worst case scenario when two round 1 winners play in Round 3 is that the two R1 winners are playing for direct qualification to the quarter-finals and the two R1 losers are battling to avoid elimination." Good - or 4 group winners and 7 'best record' teams from across the group to a KO 11?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 25/01/2024 01:27:46
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Replying To legendzxix: "A few people are questioning the incentive for winning the provincial championships. It's understandable where the Connacht and Leinster CEOs are coming from. If the provincial winners went directly to the quarter-finals though, they are at risk of elimination after one loss. If the provincial runners-up, Tailteann winner and 7 league qualifiers are in groups of 3, one team is getting a bye in each round.
Option 1: Provincial winners direct to quarter-finals and groups of 3 for provincial runners-up, Tailteann winner and 7 league qualifiers.
Option 2: 4 groups of 4 with provincial winners hosting the group stage. Provincial winners with 3 home games. All other teams with 1 home game.
Option 2 seems to be the better option unless anyone has a better suggestion.
Years ago Mickey Harte wanted a Champions Round. The idea was that the Champions Round winner would go through to the semi-finals and the two losers would play two qualifiers in the quarter-finals. If this option was to come on the table again, 7 league qualifiers and the Tailteann winner would enter in Round 1. The 4 winners would then take on the provincial runners-up in Round 2. The Provincial Champions Round winner would go to the semi-finals. The Champions Round loses would take on two Round 2 winners in Round 3.
Weekend A: Connacht and Munster finals.
Weekend B: Leinster and Ulster finals.
Weekend 1: All-Ireland Round 1 (8 teams: Tailteann winner and 7 league qualifiers.)
Weekend 2: All-Ireland Round 2 (8 teams: Provincial runners-up and Round 1 winners.)
Weekend 3: Provincial Hurling Finals.
Weekend 4: Provincial Champions Round (4 provincial winners) and All-Ireland Round 3 (4 round 2 winner).
Weekend 5: All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-finals
Weekend 6: All-Ireland Football Quarter-finals (4 teams: Champions Round losers and Round 3 winners.)
Weekend 7: All-Ireland Hurling Semi-finals.
Weekend 8: All-Ireland Football Semi-finals.
Weekend 9: All-Ireland Hurling Final.
Weekend 10: All-Ireland Football Final.
Tailteann Cup: (16 teams, double elimination format)
Weekend B: Round 1 of 16 teams.
Weekend 1: Round 2A of 8 winners and Round 2B of 8 losers.
Weekend 2: Round 3 of 4 Round 2A losers and 4 Round 2B winners.
Weekend 3: Provincial Hurling Finals.
Weekend 4: Tailteann Quarter-finals
Weekend 5: All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-finals
Weekend 6: Tailteann Semi-finals.
Weekend 7: All-Ireland Hurling Semi-finals.
Weekend 8: Tailteann Final.
Weekend 9: All-Ireland Hurling Final.
Weekend 10: All-Ireland Football Final.
It seems an unnecessary step however to remove the current group stage. Galway and Kerry both lost in the group stage and had an opportunity to bounce back. Galway lost to Armagh in the group stage and the lost to Mayo in Salthill. I don't think the Connacht champions exiting at the group stage should be a catalyst for abandoning the current format. It understandable though that the incentive for winning the provincial championships is being questioned." Put a different Prov Final into each of the 'four groups of four'?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 25/01/2024 01:32:47
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Replying To omahant: "The yoyoing teams in the Lein SHC seem to have an issue - they would rather stay up and have consistent opposition in consecutive years." That's an issue with there being 9 established strong counties out of 11 in total and there not being openness to developing counties. You could have 12 in the top championship with 1 up and 1 down or even 14 with 2 up and 2 down and they'd be improvements.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 25/01/2024 09:26:03
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Replying To omahant: "But yet, best to leave things as they are until we look at it again well, well down the line - makes no sense." No it can make sense. It's not a terrible format but to me it's clear that's there's just too little jeopardy the whole way through. Maybe give it a few years and we get better insight into what the next iteration should look like.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 25/01/2024 09:28:14
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Stop with the convuluted formats. I'd just have 3 tiers of 12, 10, 10. 2 up, 2 down between each. But just leave the current format alone for now." I think that'll be a great future format but will take a while to be in place.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 25/01/2024 09:29:25
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Replying To omahant: "Put a different Prov Final into each of the 'four groups of four'?" You could but if a provincial final goes into extra time, does the result after extra time count?
In that scenario anyway, the provincial winner can be rewarded 2 home games against the league qualifiers. The provincial runners-up should receive home advantage against the highest seed league qualifier. The higher league qualifier should receive home advantage against the lower league qualifier. The lower league qualifier should receive home advantage against the provincial runners-up. Convoluted but it does free up the extra week some are looking for.
If the provincial championships want to affirm their position after the league, they should embrace the league for seeding the provincial draws. The provincial draws the can take place on the morning after the league finals.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8274 - 25/01/2024 18:13:22
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Replying To legendzxix: "You could but if a provincial final goes into extra time, does the result after extra time count?
In that scenario anyway, the provincial winner can be rewarded 2 home games against the league qualifiers. The provincial runners-up should receive home advantage against the highest seed league qualifier. The higher league qualifier should receive home advantage against the lower league qualifier. The lower league qualifier should receive home advantage against the provincial runners-up. Convoluted but it does free up the extra week some are looking for.
If the provincial championships want to affirm their position after the league, they should embrace the league for seeding the provincial draws. The provincial draws the can take place on the morning after the league finals." Could you have an instance where it'd be advantageous for an already qualified Leinster team decide to lose a Leinster semifinal to avoid being in a group with Dublin?
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 25/01/2024 18:57:44
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Replying To Whammo86: "Could you have an instance where it'd be advantageous for an already qualified Leinster team decide to lose a Leinster semifinal to avoid being in a group with Dublin?" You could. It's a complete non runner anyways. Just musing over the format.
League seeding for provincial draws is the way to go. League feeding into provincial championships. Provincial championships and league feeding into the All-Ireland group stage. Throw in a fair incentive for provincial winners. Job done. No more formal discussions!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8274 - 25/01/2024 20:25:46
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Still waiting for a challenge to my 12-match 'crossover' schedule per team -
You don't like my 'crossover' four groups of four, drawn after Prov QFs?
Example - Ulster SF 4 are spread one to each group, so crossover SFs and Final are scheduled in.
QF and 1st rd losers also spread across groups, but group drawn is different to teams they played (to preserve crossover).
Prov Champ earns 6 match pts for 3 wins (or 8 for 4) as part of a 12-match schedule (Kerry might earn only 4 pts from 2 Munster ties, but it doesn't matter, they play 10 others for a total 12 games too).
Prov results are meaningful, AIC is balanced and the Prov councils should be happy because the Prov matches are being played - what's not to like? - really tell me, punch a hole in my boat, or tell me you've found one.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 25/01/2024 22:56:10
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Replying To Whammo86: "Could you have an instance where it'd be advantageous for an already qualified Leinster team decide to lose a Leinster semifinal to avoid being in a group with Dublin?" Avoiding Dublin is possible, but motivation for doing so is based on what you'd get from an alternative group draw - Kerry, Ulster Finalists or possibly two of Connacht's Big 3, all not great propositions. Maybe getting Dublin or Kerry is preferable, given three advancing from each group.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 26/01/2024 02:40:02
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Replying To omahant: "Still waiting for a challenge to my 12-match 'crossover' schedule per team -
You don't like my 'crossover' four groups of four, drawn after Prov QFs?
Example - Ulster SF 4 are spread one to each group, so crossover SFs and Final are scheduled in.
QF and 1st rd losers also spread across groups, but group drawn is different to teams they played (to preserve crossover).
Prov Champ earns 6 match pts for 3 wins (or 8 for 4) as part of a 12-match schedule (Kerry might earn only 4 pts from 2 Munster ties, but it doesn't matter, they play 10 others for a total 12 games too).
Prov results are meaningful, AIC is balanced and the Prov councils should be happy because the Prov matches are being played - what's not to like? - really tell me, punch a hole in my boat, or tell me you've found one." So what I'm going to say is meant constructively.
I think if you framed your idea as:
2 divisions of 16. Every team plays 12 games and any provincial championship game involving 2 teams from the same division counts as part of the 12 games I think that people would be less put off by your suggestion. The mechanics of how the 12 games are decided aren't really that important.
As to the proposal itself, it has merit. I do wonder what you'd do about a 2nd tier team winning their province.
How would you handle extra time for Provincial games. I've an idea on this myself that I think would be exciting but traditionalists might not like.
How do you handle home and away scheduling with Neutral venues at times being used in the Provincial championships.
Is a 12 game schedule too much to keep the competition exciting particularly in the second tier with no relegation.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 26/01/2024 09:09:17
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Replying To Whammo86: "So what I'm going to say is meant constructively.
I think if you framed your idea as:
2 divisions of 16. Every team plays 12 games and any provincial championship game involving 2 teams from the same division counts as part of the 12 games I think that people would be less put off by your suggestion. The mechanics of how the 12 games are decided aren't really that important.
As to the proposal itself, it has merit. I do wonder what you'd do about a 2nd tier team winning their province.
How would you handle extra time for Provincial games. I've an idea on this myself that I think would be exciting but traditionalists might not like.
How do you handle home and away scheduling with Neutral venues at times being used in the Provincial championships.
Is a 12 game schedule too much to keep the competition exciting particularly in the second tier with no relegation." Thanks for that.
I offer a few answers to the points made.
Tier 2 Prov Champ - Parachutes as last seed into Tier 1 KO (as inelegant, as is unexpected).
Home/Away/Neutral - Just schedule them, targetting
h4-a4-n2 per team.
Teams not in with a chance after 6 games - this is why I typically like large playoff fields (say 10 or 11 of 16), or merging Tier 1 bottom 8 with Tier 2 top 8 and giving the upper half in each a double chance. Perhaps Tier 2 top 4 to SFs (winners to Final and both go up); SF losers join the next 6 or 8 in Tier 3 KO (Champ gets a 3rd promotion berth to Tier 1); all losers stay in Tier 2 for next year.
Mechanism - I hear you - some might say "just give me the big picture" but others are curious to know "how will this work, give me more details".
People are familiar with the 'four groups of four' in each tier and there may be some excitement around the 'structured' draw, which can happen early (after Prov QFs).
My schedule is similar to rugby's URC, with 18 matches less the six 'own group' games - easy enough to understand - URC only has groups to show who plays twice, mine for teams who avoid each other - other than that, it's really one combined league table. You could have the top 2 in each tier play double-chance league finals as well, on route to the AIC KO, if there is a desire to retain league finals.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 26/01/2024 14:49:52
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Replying To omahant: "Thanks for that.
I offer a few answers to the points made.
Tier 2 Prov Champ - Parachutes as last seed into Tier 1 KO (as inelegant, as is unexpected).
Home/Away/Neutral - Just schedule them, targetting
h4-a4-n2 per team.
Teams not in with a chance after 6 games - this is why I typically like large playoff fields (say 10 or 11 of 16), or merging Tier 1 bottom 8 with Tier 2 top 8 and giving the upper half in each a double chance. Perhaps Tier 2 top 4 to SFs (winners to Final and both go up); SF losers join the next 6 or 8 in Tier 3 KO (Champ gets a 3rd promotion berth to Tier 1); all losers stay in Tier 2 for next year.
Mechanism - I hear you - some might say "just give me the big picture" but others are curious to know "how will this work, give me more details".
People are familiar with the 'four groups of four' in each tier and there may be some excitement around the 'structured' draw, which can happen early (after Prov QFs).
My schedule is similar to rugby's URC, with 18 matches less the six 'own group' games - easy enough to understand - URC only has groups to show who plays twice, mine for teams who avoid each other - other than that, it's really one combined league table. You could have the top 2 in each tier play double-chance league finals as well, on route to the AIC KO, if there is a desire to retain league finals." I do really dislike wide knockout fields, it's the lack of jeopardy issue again.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 26/01/2024 16:28:36
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Crossover games are unlikely to be considered. A previous hurling league format had Division 1A and 1B with 6 teams each, 5 games each. The top 3 from each went into Group 1. The bottom 3 from each went into Group 2. The groups had 6 teams each, 3 games each. There was no crossover games from the division phase. Teams who didn't play each other in the division phase played each other in the group phase. If they didn't use crossover of games then in the group phase, it is unlikely there will ever be an appetite for that format.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8274 - 26/01/2024 17:13:02
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Replying To legendzxix: "Crossover games are unlikely to be considered. A previous hurling league format had Division 1A and 1B with 6 teams each, 5 games each. The top 3 from each went into Group 1. The bottom 3 from each went into Group 2. The groups had 6 teams each, 3 games each. There was no crossover games from the division phase. Teams who didn't play each other in the division phase played each other in the group phase. If they didn't use crossover of games then in the group phase, it is unlikely there will ever be an appetite for that format." It seems from what you wrote that, after the split, teams from different divisions played each other in the group phase, the definition of "crossover" pairings - or I just don't get it?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2874 - 27/01/2024 13:57:20
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