National Forum

Ban The Hand Pass In Hurling. What Are The Alternatives?

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "I suppose you pretend they're handpasses like the rest of the hurling fraternity"
No, he's saying that in common with most players, refs and spectators he can't tell the difference. So what matter?

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3118 - 10/08/2023 16:35:51    2499947

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "If they're that skilful why do they need to throw the ******* ball?"
Show me the proof,I know you can't,back up yourself up with facts not that you can't see the game cause it's too fast and throw out lies.

cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 783 - 10/08/2023 18:31:31    2499974

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Replying To ZUL10:  "In the interest of the future of the game!
Not sure why you brought Limerick into this. My issue is with all teams at every grade. All you need to do is look at Gaelic football and thats where we are headed with hurling. The number of hand passes is increasing year on year and as a skill its simply too easy to execute. Why not just allow the throw altogether? Dont fool ourselves into thinking theres some sort of magic in releasing a small ball in a sling type motion, space or no space.
Anyone who needs to see examples of throws is either blind or burying their head in the sand!"
The game of hurling is excellent,the issue with the hand pass is it's gone too fast and certain people can't keep up with it,I be more concerned about the Gap in hurling,we have no new counties coming through,that is the major problem and a few on here giving out cause the game is too fast to see a handpass.

cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 783 - 10/08/2023 18:35:28    2499975

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "No, he's saying that in common with most players, refs and spectators he can't tell the difference. So what matter?"
So what your saying is they could be throws and they might not be but we continue to give the benefit. If theres such little difference then I can only conclude theres little difference between a throw and a 'finely' executed pass. But we will continue to believe they are the latter.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 10/08/2023 19:00:03    2499982

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Around 20 per game on average."
Give us exact examples so we can all look. It's easy say there are 20 on average each game. The refs which are on the pitch closer than any of us call them when they see them. But you seem to know better than all the best referees in the country. I think the game is too fast for you maybe. I've heard no Managers complaining about 20 throws per game. Have you? A few years ago Cork played Limerick in Cork in the league. The ref blew for roughly 10 that night I'd say. It was shown afterwards by RTE that the ref got it wrong. The players are just so fast at everything now. Its called Skill. If the game needs changes in my opinion the diving, feigning injury and talking off a helmet to slow down the game needs to be addressed.

Limerick2018 (Limerick) - Posts: 78 - 12/08/2023 12:15:49    2500174

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Replying To Limerick2018:  "Give us exact examples so we can all look. It's easy say there are 20 on average each game. The refs which are on the pitch closer than any of us call them when they see them. But you seem to know better than all the best referees in the country. I think the game is too fast for you maybe. I've heard no Managers complaining about 20 throws per game. Have you? A few years ago Cork played Limerick in Cork in the league. The ref blew for roughly 10 that night I'd say. It was shown afterwards by RTE that the ref got it wrong. The players are just so fast at everything now. Its called Skill. If the game needs changes in my opinion the diving, feigning injury and talking off a helmet to slow down the game needs to be addressed."
The ref got it wrong a few times I meant that night

Limerick2018 (Limerick) - Posts: 78 - 12/08/2023 12:46:41    2500179

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Replying To ZUL10:  "So what your saying is they could be throws and they might not be but we continue to give the benefit. If theres such little difference then I can only conclude theres little difference between a throw and a 'finely' executed pass. But we will continue to believe they are the latter."
Once the ref is happy there's separation. That's what he's there for. To enforce the rules as best he can. Or are you saying refs are cheating these days?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13866 - 12/08/2023 12:49:49    2500180

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It is virtually impossible to see separation in a lot of hand passes. The best the ref can look for in a lot of instances is double movement of the hand, and that in itself does not mean a legal handpass. Rules that can't be enforced properly are rarely good rules.

It is also not a hard skill, it is probably the easiest thing to do with a ball in the game. It negates a lot of hard work also. You can chase a guy for half the pitch, turn him, have him under control more or less, and he just slips a hand pass away.

For me, I would keep the hand pass, but make it a bit harder. I would have it that you can only handpass off the hurl. That gives the defender a chance, but also leaves the option to handpass open. I suspect over time too you would get to see some very good variations of that, involving real skill.

The game does evolve and does need tweaking. Not a very long time ago you could hand pass a goal. It was decided to do away with that and I think if it was bought back now most people would be against it.

dougal123 (Louth) - Posts: 11 - 12/08/2023 13:30:04    2500187

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Replying To Viking66:  "Once the ref is happy there's separation. That's what he's there for. To enforce the rules as best he can. Or are you saying refs are cheating these days?"
Id say the refs are giving the benefit of the doubt most of the time. I think you dont see the point of our argument. Your Just another one of those 'let it flow'' at all costs and everything will be fine....Hurling's brilliant and no need to change anything bla bla bla.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 12/08/2023 15:38:36    2500202

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Replying To ZUL10:  "Id say the refs are giving the benefit of the doubt most of the time. I think you dont see the point of our argument. Your Just another one of those 'let it flow'' at all costs and everything will be fine....Hurling's brilliant and no need to change anything bla bla bla."
I actually think it's better than that. I watched the 96 final back there during the week. I can't say I noticed that there was less handpassing as such. There was alot more ground hurling, some of it very good. There were also a few attempts at overhead striking, most of which didn't connect with the ball. Or anything else except another hurl.
Never mind you and the other anti handpassing posters trying to find 20 illegal ones in any game, as there hasn't been anything forthcoming. Just out of interest do you know how many handpasses there were in total, legal and illegal, in this years AI Final?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13866 - 12/08/2023 16:15:50    2500204

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Christ almighty lads, there's throws going in every game from every county. Limerick, Wexford, Dublin, Carlow, Longford. Its not about any county getting away with it.
Its about an overall rule. Do you want a rule that is enforceable and can be consistently applied or not? If so, what to do about it?
That's the question.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 12/08/2023 17:26:42    2500212

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Christ almighty lads, there's throws going in every game from every county. Limerick, Wexford, Dublin, Carlow, Longford. Its not about any county getting away with it.
Its about an overall rule. Do you want a rule that is enforceable and can be consistently applied or not? If so, what to do about it?
That's the question."
I don't think you understand the rule,the vast majority of handpasses are legal,I'll go back to the league final,when the ref pulled for throws and when looked back were legal handpasses,ref got it wrong,the committee over the refs are looking at every game,are you looking for a rule change cause the majority aren't breaking any rules,like what do ye actually want,the game of hurling is better than it ever was,do ye want to go the football route and start bringing in new rules that do nothing but make the game worse.Christ almighty what do ye want.

cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 783 - 12/08/2023 18:44:20    2500220

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Replying To cityman73:  "I don't think you understand the rule,the vast majority of handpasses are legal,I'll go back to the league final,when the ref pulled for throws and when looked back were legal handpasses,ref got it wrong,the committee over the refs are looking at every game,are you looking for a rule change cause the majority aren't breaking any rules,like what do ye actually want,the game of hurling is better than it ever was,do ye want to go the football route and start bringing in new rules that do nothing but make the game worse.Christ almighty what do ye want."
That's exactly it. Hand pass only became a problem when refs were really being fussy over it last year in league. I was in Thurles for Dublin v Tipp and - forget who it was - but he was obsessional about it. Main take from both players and supporters on both sides was that nobody actually knew whether a pass was a throw and that no-one was screaming for anyone to be called back on it. No one other than ref seemed in the least bothered!

Same happened in other games so I'm assuming that the powers that be told refs "Look lads, unless it's an obvious throw, then ease up." Which they clearly have. No one objects when a clear throw is called and game has been allowed flow. Alternative is not going to improve anything.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3118 - 12/08/2023 19:06:10    2500225

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "That's exactly it. Hand pass only became a problem when refs were really being fussy over it last year in league. I was in Thurles for Dublin v Tipp and - forget who it was - but he was obsessional about it. Main take from both players and supporters on both sides was that nobody actually knew whether a pass was a throw and that no-one was screaming for anyone to be called back on it. No one other than ref seemed in the least bothered!

Same happened in other games so I'm assuming that the powers that be told refs "Look lads, unless it's an obvious throw, then ease up." Which they clearly have. No one objects when a clear throw is called and game has been allowed flow. Alternative is not going to improve anything."
Silly oul Refs enforcing the rules!!
What next?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 13/08/2023 12:10:43    2500282

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An average of 95 hand passes per game in this years Liam McCarthy competition. The poster who watched the 96 final and didn't see much difference in hand passing refuses to engage in the topic.

Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1916 - 13/08/2023 13:14:37    2500292

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Replying To Claretandblue:  "An average of 95 hand passes per game in this years Liam McCarthy competition. The poster who watched the 96 final and didn't see much difference in hand passing refuses to engage in the topic."
None so blind...

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 13/08/2023 14:27:53    2500296

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Replying To cityman73:  "I don't think you understand the rule,the vast majority of handpasses are legal,I'll go back to the league final,when the ref pulled for throws and when looked back were legal handpasses,ref got it wrong,the committee over the refs are looking at every game,are you looking for a rule change cause the majority aren't breaking any rules,like what do ye actually want,the game of hurling is better than it ever was,do ye want to go the football route and start bringing in new rules that do nothing but make the game worse.Christ almighty what do ye want."
Calm down, its a discussion board.
In your opinion they were legal "when looked back", but the referee on the spot didn't get a chance to look back, everything is easy with a replay.
Most referees would make the perfect decision if they had a replay. But they don't. They have a split second to adjudicate a throw or a handpass. Which is an impossible task.
They will get them wrong until there's a proper rule which they can rule on. I see handpasses in every match even at underage (which is where I see most matches) which are dubious. If there had to be clear sight between the ball and hand, or it be played off the hand, that anomaly goes away.
I know 2 referees in Wexford and they say the hardest rule by a mile to judge is the handpass - "because it is arbitary and impossible to judge a throw or a handpass". The words of one of them.
Do you not want a rule that is clear and unambiguous?

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 13/08/2023 15:09:55    2500299

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Replying To Claretandblue:  "An average of 95 hand passes per game in this years Liam McCarthy competition. The poster who watched the 96 final and didn't see much difference in hand passing refuses to engage in the topic."
Why go back to 1996, the short puck out was not even invented then and that is where all the problem starts from.The 2018 AISF (Cork v Limerick) was riddled with handpasses/throws the majority of them executed by Cork, but there was hardly a word about the problem after that game. How is it that it is only when Limerick got on top that this issue has got so hot.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4467 - 13/08/2023 20:51:22    2500353

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Calm down, its a discussion board.
In your opinion they were legal "when looked back", but the referee on the spot didn't get a chance to look back, everything is easy with a replay.
Most referees would make the perfect decision if they had a replay. But they don't. They have a split second to adjudicate a throw or a handpass. Which is an impossible task.
They will get them wrong until there's a proper rule which they can rule on. I see handpasses in every match even at underage (which is where I see most matches) which are dubious. If there had to be clear sight between the ball and hand, or it be played off the hand, that anomaly goes away.
I know 2 referees in Wexford and they say the hardest rule by a mile to judge is the handpass - "because it is arbitary and impossible to judge a throw or a handpass". The words of one of them.
Do you not want a rule that is clear and unambiguous?"
Lots of things in a fast moving sport are ambiguous. Number of steps taken in football be one example. If they are that hard to police and it doesn't interfere with the game and players and supporters don't give out about them, then leave it as is.

There is also without a doubt - as there was with a number of rule changes in football when Dublin were in their pomp - a definite element of go-be-the-walls trying to devalue what this Limerick team has achieved by implying that they above everyone else has benefitted from this harmless ambiguity.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3118 - 13/08/2023 21:02:26    2500357

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Replying To ZUL10:  "So what your saying is they could be throws and they might not be but we continue to give the benefit. If theres such little difference then I can only conclude theres little difference between a throw and a 'finely' executed pass. But we will continue to believe they are the latter."
Zulu, you would swear the handpass/throw was the only foul that goes unpunished.I am on record as saying the amount of pulling and dragging that is perpetrated by Full Back Lines is totally unsightly and unsporting. I was laughed off by various people who said it 'all part of the game'. However when Gullane turned that tables on a long term Cork tormentor and won a very slightly dubious penalty all hell broke loose and some Cork Supporters were still writing to 'Da Paper' seven or eight weeks giving out yards about Limerick 'CHEATING' if you please. It was a great 'auld' spectator altogether. These people support a county that has five times our Hurling Population and they expect every 50/50 decision to go their way as a matter of right.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4467 - 13/08/2023 21:05:57    2500358

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