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McDonagh Cup Link To All-Ireland To Be Removed?

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Derek Kent is right, how can likes of Laois, Carlow, Westmeath qualify while likes of Tipp and Waterford are eliminated. The loser of McDonagh certainly shouldn't be qualifying

Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 2131 - 09/04/2025 18:34:06    2601276

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Replying To Claretandblue:  "Derek Kent is right, how can likes of Laois, Carlow, Westmeath qualify while likes of Tipp and Waterford are eliminated. The loser of McDonagh certainly shouldn't be qualifying"
Once upon a time there was a qualifier group. The top 2 from the qualifier group qualified for the Leinster quarter finals. When the round robin provincial championships came in, the qualifier group evolved into the McDonagh Cup. As it wasn't practical for the top McDonagh teams to enter the Leinster championship of the same year, the All Ireland preliminary quarter-finals was the compromise and the sweetener for McDonagh counties facilitating the provincial group structure.
Carlow will say they will miss out the promotion that hosting an All Ireland preliminary quarter-final can bring. For the McDonagh Cup to possibly gain bigger match days, two counties hosting McDonagh Cup semi finals in front of big crowds should be the target. It would need at least 8 teams for semi finals to be practical.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8741 - 09/04/2025 20:58:20    2601296

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Replying To Claretandblue:  "Derek Kent is right, how can likes of Laois, Carlow, Westmeath qualify while likes of Tipp and Waterford are eliminated. The loser of McDonagh certainly shouldn't be qualifying"
It might have been an advantage to Waterford or Tipp if there was relegation in Munster over the last couple of years.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3531 - 09/04/2025 22:42:40    2601309

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Here's a much better idea.

Keep the link with Liam McCarthy, but only for the winner. And they always play the Leinster 3rd place.

Laois caught Dublin one year. Lest we forget?

CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 840 - 09/04/2025 23:46:19    2601317

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Replying To CARPS:  "Here's a much better idea.

Keep the link with Liam McCarthy, but only for the winner. And they always play the Leinster 3rd place.

Laois caught Dublin one year. Lest we forget?"
Oh, we don't forget that Laois caught Dublin one year. It's the result that's always used in any argument to maintain the link between the Liam McCarthy Cup and the Joe McDonagh.

But here's a thing. Of the other nine preliminary quarter-finals played so far since the system was introduced, the average winning margin for the McCarthy Cup team has been 17 points. Just once was the winning margin in single digits - that was when Cork beat Offaly by "only" nine points last year (4-25 to 3-19).

I stand to be corrected on this, but I can think of no other sport where the winners of a secondary competition are springboarded into the latter stages of a higher competition, after some teams who began in that higher competition have already been eliminated.

My view would be to get rid of the link between the McDonagh and McCarthy. Let the Joe McDonagh Cup winners finish their year on the high of winning it, rather than going out a week or two later against a stronger team and probably being beaten by double digits.

And let the McDonagh runners-up finish their year with just that one disappointment, instead of also having to go out again and suffer a probable heavy defeat against a team from a higher level that they haven't even qualified for in the following year.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2833 - 11/04/2025 10:05:33    2601481

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Get rid of it
It does nothing to promote hurling in so called weaker counties but it just allows the GAA to claim that
It's a vestige - back in the day the NHL had something similar when the top 2 in Division 2 also made the playoffs with the top 4 from Division 1
Plus is some counties (like Limerick you still have something similar)
It's tokenism that gives the GAA cover
Take away the link, that way you can play the McDonogh over a longer time frame (right now it's rushed) even add games to it, it frees up a weekend in the AI series, you get rid of blowouts, abd McDonogh winners can properly celebrate winning their "All Ireland"

Yadse (Limerick) - Posts: 96 - 11/04/2025 13:49:17    2601513

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The new league format should be a game changer. Down and Kildare get to take on Clare and Wexford next year. The preliminary quarter finals could be revisited.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8741 - 11/04/2025 14:31:10    2601514

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Replying To Yadse:  "Get rid of it
It does nothing to promote hurling in so called weaker counties but it just allows the GAA to claim that
It's a vestige - back in the day the NHL had something similar when the top 2 in Division 2 also made the playoffs with the top 4 from Division 1
Plus is some counties (like Limerick you still have something similar)
It's tokenism that gives the GAA cover
Take away the link, that way you can play the McDonogh over a longer time frame (right now it's rushed) even add games to it, it frees up a weekend in the AI series, you get rid of blowouts, abd McDonogh winners can properly celebrate winning their "All Ireland""
They could properly celebrate by not having a 6 day turnaround.

Passer_By (Carlow) - Posts: 532 - 11/04/2025 15:15:07    2601517

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Replying To Passer_By:  "They could properly celebrate by not having a 6 day turnaround."
They could properly celebrate if they had something like a 40-week turnaround. From the McDonagh Cup Final around early July one year, to Round 1 of the senior championship around Easter of the following year :)

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2833 - 16/04/2025 14:23:40    2602233

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "They could properly celebrate if they had something like a 40-week turnaround. From the McDonagh Cup Final around early July one year, to Round 1 of the senior championship around Easter of the following year :)"
Well put Pikeman

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15506 - 16/04/2025 14:51:19    2602246

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "They could properly celebrate if they had something like a 40-week turnaround. From the McDonagh Cup Final around early July one year, to Round 1 of the senior championship around Easter of the following year :)"
If Wexford had been relegated would you still have the same view?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1565 - 16/04/2025 15:11:52    2602251

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Replying To oneoff:  "If Wexford had been relegated would you still have the same view?"
Absolutely.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15506 - 16/04/2025 15:20:32    2602255

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Replying To oneoff:  "If Wexford had been relegated would you still have the same view?"
They can still get relegated, they could be relegated any year

WEXILE (Wexford) - Posts: 363 - 16/04/2025 15:50:03    2602259

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Replying To oneoff:  "If Wexford had been relegated would you still have the same view?"
As Viking said above - absolutely.

When we were in serious danger of relegation back in 2023, I and others were consoling ourselves with thoughts of "at least we'll have a relatively handy run to the All-Ireland stages next year". No disrespect to the other counties involved, but I'd more confident of Wexford making the top two of the Joe McDonagh group any year than the top three of the Leinster Championship group.

But then we'd have been into the All-Ireland stages when two of the Munster counties would already have been knocked out. Basically, we'd have been rewarded for dropping down a level. And that can't be right.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2833 - 27/04/2025 19:04:52    2604704

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "As Viking said above - absolutely.

When we were in serious danger of relegation back in 2023, I and others were consoling ourselves with thoughts of "at least we'll have a relatively handy run to the All-Ireland stages next year". No disrespect to the other counties involved, but I'd more confident of Wexford making the top two of the Joe McDonagh group any year than the top three of the Leinster Championship group.

But then we'd have been into the All-Ireland stages when two of the Munster counties would already have been knocked out. Basically, we'd have been rewarded for dropping down a level. And that can't be right."
But the McDonagh Cup was established as part of the senior all Ireland i.e. it's a subset of the Liam McCarthy Cup.

I'd agree 100% that the runner up in Joe Mc should not have a preliminary quarter final but the winner has to be able to go on as part of the Liam McCarthy. That's what distinguishes the Joe McDonagh from likes of Christy Ring, Nickey Rackard etc. It's. It not stand alone competition it's part of the Liam McCarthy. That's the way it was set up.

If the argument is it shouldn't be any part of Liam McCarthy then that is actually an argument to do away with Joe McDonagh altogether as the competition immediately underneath Liam McCarthy is actually the Christy Ring, not Joe McDonagh.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1551 - 27/04/2025 20:11:48    2604746

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Replying To Onion Breath:  "But the McDonagh Cup was established as part of the senior all Ireland i.e. it's a subset of the Liam McCarthy Cup.

I'd agree 100% that the runner up in Joe Mc should not have a preliminary quarter final but the winner has to be able to go on as part of the Liam McCarthy. That's what distinguishes the Joe McDonagh from likes of Christy Ring, Nickey Rackard etc. It's. It not stand alone competition it's part of the Liam McCarthy. That's the way it was set up.

If the argument is it shouldn't be any part of Liam McCarthy then that is actually an argument to do away with Joe McDonagh altogether as the competition immediately underneath Liam McCarthy is actually the Christy Ring, not Joe McDonagh."
Methinks you're clutching at straws with your last line. Nobody's in doubt that the Liam McCarty is the primary competition, the Joe McDonagh is the secondary one, and the Christy Ring is the tertiary.

Anyway, consider some other examples:

In soccer, the Europa League thing that Manchester United are still involved in. The winners get a spot in the following season's Champions League. They aren't parachuted into the latter stages of the Champions League in the same season.

Or closer to home, the Tailteann Cup. It's not run off early so that the winners can join the Sam Maguire series at the preliminary quarter-final stages. Instead, the winners wait until the following season before taking their place in the primary competition.

Leaving aside the Laois victory (by two points) over Dublin in 2019, facts are:
- average winning margin of McCarthy Cup side over Joe McDonagh winners = 13.5 points
- average winning margin of McCarthy Cup side over Joe McDonagh runners-up = 20 points

Again, I say let the McDonagh Cup finalists finish their campaign either on the high of winning it and looking forward to promotion the next year, or dealing with just the one disappointment of losing that final.

Little to be gained by making them go out again a week later and more than likely losing by double digits.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2833 - 28/04/2025 10:44:59    2604905

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Methinks you're clutching at straws with your last line. Nobody's in doubt that the Liam McCarty is the primary competition, the Joe McDonagh is the secondary one, and the Christy Ring is the tertiary.

Anyway, consider some other examples:

In soccer, the Europa League thing that Manchester United are still involved in. The winners get a spot in the following season's Champions League. They aren't parachuted into the latter stages of the Champions League in the same season.

Or closer to home, the Tailteann Cup. It's not run off early so that the winners can join the Sam Maguire series at the preliminary quarter-final stages. Instead, the winners wait until the following season before taking their place in the primary competition.

Leaving aside the Laois victory (by two points) over Dublin in 2019, facts are:
- average winning margin of McCarthy Cup side over Joe McDonagh winners = 13.5 points
- average winning margin of McCarthy Cup side over Joe McDonagh runners-up = 20 points

Again, I say let the McDonagh Cup finalists finish their campaign either on the high of winning it and looking forward to promotion the next year, or dealing with just the one disappointment of losing that final.

Little to be gained by making them go out again a week later and more than likely losing by double digits."
Fair enough, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but then the decision should be to do away with the McDonagh Cup as it's purpose is/was to be a subset of Liam McCarthy (as replacement for the Leinster Qualifier group which was also part of the McCarthy Cup). Christy Ring started out as the second tier so why create another tier if Joe Mc is no longer part of McCarthy. Do we really need five tiers? Let the Joe Mc teams revert to Christy Ring as they would have been before the Leinster qualifier group started (when Galway and Antrim were parachuted into Leinster) and go with four tiers which is probably one too many anyway.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1551 - 28/04/2025 11:27:04    2604933

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