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McDonagh Cup Link To All-Ireland To Be Removed?

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Replying To jobber:  "My point entirely but the Munster gang are so wrapped up in their own self importance like many elements in Ireland they dont see it."
You said it. They'll moan about how unfair the 3rd in Leinster gets in and how great they are. But do nothing which even remotely threatens their own superiority or maybe opens the game to new entrants.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 07/07/2023 09:05:45    2492786

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "But they aren't equally treated as it is at the moment. One faces relegation, the other doesn't."
They are being treated equally that both provinces are guaranteed 5 teams. The McDonagh winner determines the 11th county.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 07/07/2023 11:17:37    2492842

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Replying To legendzxix:  "They are being treated equally that both provinces are guaranteed 5 teams. The McDonagh winner determines the 11th county."
When Antrim won why didn't they get promoted to Munster? Why do counties from Ulster and Connacht have to play in Leinster?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 07/07/2023 11:25:07    2492845

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Rightly so.

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 07/07/2023 11:44:34    2492855

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It would've been very interesting had Wexford gotten relegated and say Waterford had stayed up with zero wins.

I don't think it's hard to think that the competition as is will be around in 10 years, there's going to be something that happens that shakes things up too much.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 07/07/2023 13:16:07    2492899

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It would've been very interesting had Wexford gotten relegated and say Waterford had stayed up with zero wins.

I don't think it's hard to think that the competition as is will be around in 10 years, there's going to be something that happens that shakes things up too much."
Antrim and Offaly are key to any shake up taking place. They are the only two counties likely to create a situation where Dublin or Wexford could be relegated from Leinster.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 07/07/2023 16:26:29    2492979

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Replying To Viking66:  "When Antrim won why didn't they get promoted to Munster? Why do counties from Ulster and Connacht have to play in Leinster?"
I'm not going to argue with you. There seems to be a fair balance though that Munster is very competitive and Leinster is carrying the threat of relegation. Outside of Kilkenny, Galway, Dublin and Wexford, the rest of the counties qualifying for Leinster are not bringing big crowds. The Leinster Championship needs Antrim and Offaly to bring competitiveness and big crowds.
The GAA need to look at the marketing and promotion of the McDonagh Cup. McDonagh counties need to get more support from their own people.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 07/07/2023 16:32:14    2492980

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I'm not going to argue with you. There seems to be a fair balance though that Munster is very competitive and Leinster is carrying the threat of relegation. Outside of Kilkenny, Galway, Dublin and Wexford, the rest of the counties qualifying for Leinster are not bringing big crowds. The Leinster Championship needs Antrim and Offaly to bring competitiveness and big crowds.
The GAA need to look at the marketing and promotion of the McDonagh Cup. McDonagh counties need to get more support from their own people."
Definitely. I've watched as many Joe Mac games as I could over the last few years and all were excellent, exciting games. Its a real shame more people don't go to them.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 08/07/2023 07:38:02    2493059

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I'm not going to argue with you. There seems to be a fair balance though that Munster is very competitive and Leinster is carrying the threat of relegation. Outside of Kilkenny, Galway, Dublin and Wexford, the rest of the counties qualifying for Leinster are not bringing big crowds. The Leinster Championship needs Antrim and Offaly to bring competitiveness and big crowds.
The GAA need to look at the marketing and promotion of the McDonagh Cup. McDonagh counties need to get more support from their own people."
Well, Leinster was fairly competitive too this year just without all the BS hyperbole.
What is likely to happen is 1-2 team in Munster won't come out of it for a few years, and if one of those is Cork or Tipp eventually the push for change will start because it'll be "poor old us we can't get out of the province".
If Waterford don't recover and recover quickly, they could easily become also rans which will remove half the risk from Munster.
I like my sports to be fair, equitable and rankings based. Not regional, traditional and based on archaic systems.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 08/07/2023 10:48:31    2493086

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Well, Leinster was fairly competitive too this year just without all the BS hyperbole.
What is likely to happen is 1-2 team in Munster won't come out of it for a few years, and if one of those is Cork or Tipp eventually the push for change will start because it'll be "poor old us we can't get out of the province".
If Waterford don't recover and recover quickly, they could easily become also rans which will remove half the risk from Munster.
I like my sports to be fair, equitable and rankings based. Not regional, traditional and based on archaic systems."
All county championships can only produce one winner, despite different numbers of clubs. While I'm not overly enthused about 4th placed teams qualifying from the provincial championships, I'm not entirely against it.

Jun 10/11: 4th placed playoff between Wexford v Cork. Same weekend as provincial finals. Cork winner for arguments sake based on league performance.
Jun 17/18: Preliminary Quarter-finals of Dublin v Cork and Carlow v Tipperary. Cork and Tipperary winning for arguments sake, based on league ranking.
Jun 24/25: Quarter-finals of Clare v Cork and Galway v Tipperary.

If Cork for example can beat 4th in Leinster to qualify for a preliminary quarter-final and can beat 3rd in Leinster to make a quarter-final, it is a fair compromise. The 4th paced winner getting to a quarter-final would be playing 3 weekends in a row. There are enough incentives to qualify for a provincial final for the quarter-final safety net or at least to finish 3rd.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 08/07/2023 13:41:34    2493120

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Replying To legendzxix:  "All county championships can only produce one winner, despite different numbers of clubs. While I'm not overly enthused about 4th placed teams qualifying from the provincial championships, I'm not entirely against it.

Jun 10/11: 4th placed playoff between Wexford v Cork. Same weekend as provincial finals. Cork winner for arguments sake based on league performance.
Jun 17/18: Preliminary Quarter-finals of Dublin v Cork and Carlow v Tipperary. Cork and Tipperary winning for arguments sake, based on league ranking.
Jun 24/25: Quarter-finals of Clare v Cork and Galway v Tipperary.

If Cork for example can beat 4th in Leinster to qualify for a preliminary quarter-final and can beat 3rd in Leinster to make a quarter-final, it is a fair compromise. The 4th paced winner getting to a quarter-final would be playing 3 weekends in a row. There are enough incentives to qualify for a provincial final for the quarter-final safety net or at least to finish 3rd."
I see the logic, but I think the current schedule is too tight to accommodate this many games, there are already too many games in too short a period for the players (they're still amateur players, they don't have the opportunity to recover between games that the current schedule requires).

With all the machinations for restructure options, I think we have accept that any senior level restructure will have a limited role in allowing counties to develop. That really happens at underage. I was disappointed to see Kerry move out of the U20 and minor Munster championships this year. Again, I understand the logic, but if Kerry want to play in the Munster SHC, they have to be playing these teams at underage (I thought maybe keeping he U20's in Munster at least might have been an option). But I get that its a 6 of one, half dozen of the other situation.

I think something that should done right away, is to do away with the provincial system at minor and u20. This is where players develop, the silo-d nature just stymies development, especially as there's just a final at u20 after provincial champs. That said, very difficult to organize an all county All Ireland championship at those levels. Maybe take the format used in the Leinster MHC, and apply it at an AI basis? Might be a start.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 08/07/2023 14:24:45    2493122

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "I see the logic, but I think the current schedule is too tight to accommodate this many games, there are already too many games in too short a period for the players (they're still amateur players, they don't have the opportunity to recover between games that the current schedule requires).

With all the machinations for restructure options, I think we have accept that any senior level restructure will have a limited role in allowing counties to develop. That really happens at underage. I was disappointed to see Kerry move out of the U20 and minor Munster championships this year. Again, I understand the logic, but if Kerry want to play in the Munster SHC, they have to be playing these teams at underage (I thought maybe keeping he U20's in Munster at least might have been an option). But I get that its a 6 of one, half dozen of the other situation.

I think something that should done right away, is to do away with the provincial system at minor and u20. This is where players develop, the silo-d nature just stymies development, especially as there's just a final at u20 after provincial champs. That said, very difficult to organize an all county All Ireland championship at those levels. Maybe take the format used in the Leinster MHC, and apply it at an AI basis? Might be a start."
A playoff between the 4th placed teams on the same weekend as the provincial finals is only one extra game. The following two weekends remain as they are. If teams want to avoid that extra game, it is an added incentive to finish in the top 3 at least.
The Kerry minors and u20s joining Leinster is a sensible move. It was a strange decision to put the Kerry minors in Leinster Tier 1 but if that was a rite of passage for joining Leinster, so be it. Leinster Tier 2 at minor and u20 is Kerry's level.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 08/07/2023 15:33:51    2493131

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A playoff between the 4th placed teams on the same weekend as the provincial finals is only one extra game. The following two weekends remain as they are. If teams want to avoid that extra game, it is an added incentive to finish in the top 3 at least.
The Kerry minors and u20s joining Leinster is a sensible move. It was a strange decision to put the Kerry minors in Leinster Tier 1 but if that was a rite of passage for joining Leinster, so be it. Leinster Tier 2 at minor and u20 is Kerry's level."
Westmeath and Offaly are in Leinster tier 2 at u20 are you sure playing them would be any better than playing Waterford for example? Why is there this fixation with you lads playing in Leinster?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 08/07/2023 16:43:37    2493137

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "I see the logic, but I think the current schedule is too tight to accommodate this many games, there are already too many games in too short a period for the players (they're still amateur players, they don't have the opportunity to recover between games that the current schedule requires).

With all the machinations for restructure options, I think we have accept that any senior level restructure will have a limited role in allowing counties to develop. That really happens at underage. I was disappointed to see Kerry move out of the U20 and minor Munster championships this year. Again, I understand the logic, but if Kerry want to play in the Munster SHC, they have to be playing these teams at underage (I thought maybe keeping he U20's in Munster at least might have been an option). But I get that its a 6 of one, half dozen of the other situation.

I think something that should done right away, is to do away with the provincial system at minor and u20. This is where players develop, the silo-d nature just stymies development, especially as there's just a final at u20 after provincial champs. That said, very difficult to organize an all county All Ireland championship at those levels. Maybe take the format used in the Leinster MHC, and apply it at an AI basis? Might be a start."
I have said that for ages, the way hurling develops from Dublin downwards is by having these counties start development at Tony Forristal level, and then at minor and u20.
I get the train of thought that the local rivalries are what makes the GAA great, but I fail to see what would be wrong with a minor championship group of 5-6 teams. There will be hammerings in there but also learnings for teams.
The biggest issue is counties think "why bother" at the moment. Why would Kildare invest in hurling if their reward is yo-yo between the Joe Mc and the Leinster championship, while the top counties suit themselves?
There hasn't been a new winner in 40 years and if nothing changes, it will be another 40.
Is that all we can aim for as an organisation? You always hear about how its the best game known to man yet 70% of Irish children have most likely never held a hurl?

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 08/07/2023 16:55:57    2493142

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Replying To Viking66:  "Westmeath and Offaly are in Leinster tier 2 at u20 are you sure playing them would be any better than playing Waterford for example? Why is there this fixation with you lads playing in Leinster?"
The fixation is to be playing similar counties that are in Division 2A and the McDonagh.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 08/07/2023 18:43:02    2493158

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The fixation is to be playing similar counties that are in Division 2A and the McDonagh."
Waterford haven't won an u20/1 game since 2016 or maybe only 1 or 2. At that grade they would probably have lost to Offaly and maybe Westmeath this year. Laois knocked Wexford and Kilkenny out of the Leinster minor championship last year so are likely to be pretty good at u20 next year also. Do Kerry have the underage playing numbers to compete with these teams?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 12/07/2023 10:34:10    2493922

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Replying To Viking66:  "Waterford haven't won an u20/1 game since 2016 or maybe only 1 or 2. At that grade they would probably have lost to Offaly and maybe Westmeath this year. Laois knocked Wexford and Kilkenny out of the Leinster minor championship last year so are likely to be pretty good at u20 next year also. Do Kerry have the underage playing numbers to compete with these teams?"
Kerry are competing with teams ranked 10 to 18. I agree with the move to compete against these counties at minor and u20 level.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 12/07/2023 17:27:14    2494009

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Kerry are competing with teams ranked 10 to 18. I agree with the move to compete against these counties at minor and u20 level."
You lost by a combined 58 points at minor to Wexford, Dublin, and Offaly. How is that doing any good for Kerry hurling?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 13/07/2023 13:07:44    2494120

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Replying To Viking66:  "You lost by a combined 58 points at minor to Wexford, Dublin, and Offaly. How is that doing any good for Kerry hurling?"
It is not. Why did Leinster place Kerry in Tier 1? If Leinster wanted confirmation that Kerry should be in Tier 2, they got it. There will not be any complaints in Kerry about being in Tier 2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 13/07/2023 22:00:40    2494235

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It is not. Why did Leinster place Kerry in Tier 1? If Leinster wanted confirmation that Kerry should be in Tier 2, they got it. There will not be any complaints in Kerry about being in Tier 2."
Hard to know why they did that.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 14/07/2023 09:36:39    2494257

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