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McDonagh Cup Link To All-Ireland To Be Removed?

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Replying To omahant:  "What do you make of this?

- 16 team combined Hurling League Div 1 /
Championship, with three hierarchical / ranked Groups 1A, 1B & 1C, of 5, 6 & 5 teams, respectively.

- For a 10-match schedule, teams in Group 1A play those in Groups 1A & 1B; Group 1B plays Groups 1A & 1C; and Group 1C plays Groups 1B & 1C.

- One up / one down, with no League KO stage.

- Top 11 (Groups 1A & 1B teams at the beginning of the League) enter straight KO Provincial & AI Championships, while the Next 6 (Group 1C teams & Div 2 Champ) contest the KO McDonagh Cup.

- To limit match quantity, consider if certain matches could 'double up' as Provincial KO and League ties (where possible, avoid all-Group 1B Provincial ties, as these cannot double up, and would need to be played separately).

In this, my 'quirky' 16-team Div 1 structure, 'lower McCarthy Cup teams' (Group 1B) straddle the 'bigger teams' (Group 1A) and 'McDonagh Cup teams' (Group 1C) providing all counties with a 'mixed quality' schedule and an opportunity to develop. Of note, promoted and relegated teams continue to 'repeat play' five or six of their 10 opponents in consecutive Div 1 seasons.

It would take a good few years for the developing counties to improve, but this would give them adequate, repeated match practice, against some strong opposition."
The Carlow chairman has spoken well that McDonagh counties need more testing games against the top teams. Trying to allow for that is tricky.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 04/07/2023 16:44:40    2492221

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Replying To Viking66:  "https://scoreline.ie/bolger-its-imperative-that-the-joe-mcdonagh-cup-winners-get-the-opportunity-to-play-in-the-all-ireland-series/"
The Carlow chairman has spoken well and made a strong argument for the McDonagh winner qualifying for the preliminary quarter-final. An option could be McDonagh winner only advancing to the preliminary quarter-final.
The two 4th placed teams could playoff for the other spot. If the 4th Leinster team wins the playoff, 3rd in Munster gets home advantage and the McDonagh winner hosts 3rd in Leinster. If the 4th Munster team wins the playoff, 3rd in Leinster gets home advantage and the McDonagh winner hosts 3rd in Munster.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 04/07/2023 16:48:03    2492224

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Carlow chairman has spoken well and made a strong argument for the McDonagh winner qualifying for the preliminary quarter-final. An option could be McDonagh winner only advancing to the preliminary quarter-final.
The two 4th placed teams could playoff for the other spot. If the 4th Leinster team wins the playoff, 3rd in Munster gets home advantage and the McDonagh winner hosts 3rd in Leinster. If the 4th Munster team wins the playoff, 3rd in Leinster gets home advantage and the McDonagh winner hosts 3rd in Munster."
That would work well. Although it would lessen the jeopardy in the Munster and Leinster Round Robins.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 04/07/2023 17:56:41    2492244

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Carlow chairman has spoken well and made a strong argument for the McDonagh winner qualifying for the preliminary quarter-final. An option could be McDonagh winner only advancing to the preliminary quarter-final.
The two 4th placed teams could playoff for the other spot. If the 4th Leinster team wins the playoff, 3rd in Munster gets home advantage and the McDonagh winner hosts 3rd in Leinster. If the 4th Munster team wins the playoff, 3rd in Leinster gets home advantage and the McDonagh winner hosts 3rd in Munster."
Honestly just think the answer is to have Provincials start the season and follow those up with an All Ireland series.

There'd be room to run Provincials straight knockout before going on to a National championship with 2 groups of 6 or 2 groups of 7 and relegation and promotion between tiers.

The issue is trying to keep the National championship Provincial based.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 04/07/2023 19:51:58    2492277

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Honestly just think the answer is to have Provincials start the season and follow those up with an All Ireland series.

There'd be room to run Provincials straight knockout before going on to a National championship with 2 groups of 6 or 2 groups of 7 and relegation and promotion between tiers.

The issue is trying to keep the National championship Provincial based."
The Munster Championship is bringing in big crowds and gate receipts. The GAA won't be rushing in to derail that.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 05/07/2023 10:17:38    2492331

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Munster Championship is bringing in big crowds and gate receipts. The GAA won't be rushing in to derail that."
310,000 attendances at Munster SHC, €5m+ gate receipts.
That will be staying!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1960 - 05/07/2023 10:33:37    2492339

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "310,000 attendances at Munster SHC, €5m+ gate receipts.
That will be staying!"
It sure will! The two 4th placed teams playing off is probably the best compromise.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 05/07/2023 11:19:28    2492357

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It sure will! The two 4th placed teams playing off is probably the best compromise."
Why not make it 3rd v 4th and vice versa?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1960 - 05/07/2023 11:38:33    2492370

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Munster Championship is bringing in big crowds and gate receipts. The GAA won't be rushing in to derail that."
Ok fair point. I still think more games between Kilkenny and Galway v the Munster teams would bring in a lot of revenue.

I don't see why a 12 team All Ireland championship, Munster teams still play each other but also playing 4 other non Munster games counting towards All Ireland consolidated table wouldn't work.

This thinking in such a narrow manner is bizarre to me.

If you had 12 teams playing 8 games each and top 6 through to the playoffs you'd have a lot of exciting games.

I don't think it'd be too many games either, Max 11 championship games is only 2 games more than now and in line with what the footballers could play (up to 4 Provincial plus 7 All Ireland series).

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 05/07/2023 11:40:46    2492372

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Why not make it 3rd v 4th and vice versa?"
The Carlow chairman has made a strong argument for allowing the McDonagh winners get through as well. The McDonagh winners and the winner of 4th Leinster v 4th Munster is a fair compromise.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 05/07/2023 11:45:56    2492374

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If 4 teams start coming out of the provincials they will die a death and an even quicker death if Waterford don't recover.
The reason there is 310k people attending Munster is because they might be your only days out that year.
20 games in each province to get rid of 1 team? The best thing about Dublin beating Wexford this year was it put them on the back foot for the 3rd spot and while Westmeath did us a massive favour, people won't attend these matches if there is little or nothing at stake.
If 3 coming out of each province is not enough, then re-think the whole structure rather than suiting the 4th team in Munster - but no doubt they'll carry the day because they always get their way.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 05/07/2023 12:19:17    2492386

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Carlow chairman has made a strong argument for allowing the McDonagh winners get through as well. The McDonagh winners and the winner of 4th Leinster v 4th Munster is a fair compromise."
Letting the 4th place in Munster and Leinster into the mix will completely take from the brilliant championships we have had since the round robin started. If your going to tell me the Leinster c'ship hasnt always been great Then let the 3rd place in Leinster play the JMD winners.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 05/07/2023 12:30:54    2492393

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- Top 11 Round Robin League, incorporating the 'Munster 5' and the 'Leinster 6' Provincial Championships.

- 'Inter-Provincial' ties count towards the 11-team table only, but 'Intra-Provincial' ties count towards both the 11-team table and 'Provincial Round Robins'.

- Inter and Intra games played concurrently throughout the season (disperses match intensity).

- Top 2 in each Provincial Round Robin (based on 4 or 5 games only) to Provincial Finals.

- Top 6 of 11 (based on full 10 games) and 2 Provincial Champs to AI KO QFs, with those Champs earning byes if advancing twice (most likely).

- McDonagh Cup Champ attempts to 'win their way up' by playing the 'similar quality' 11th team instead (this gives the 11th team a chance of avoiding the 'Bolger/Johnny Kelly referenced yoyo').

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 05/07/2023 13:40:35    2492408

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Replying To omahant:  "- Top 11 Round Robin League, incorporating the 'Munster 5' and the 'Leinster 6' Provincial Championships.

- 'Inter-Provincial' ties count towards the 11-team table only, but 'Intra-Provincial' ties count towards both the 11-team table and 'Provincial Round Robins'.

- Inter and Intra games played concurrently throughout the season (disperses match intensity).

- Top 2 in each Provincial Round Robin (based on 4 or 5 games only) to Provincial Finals.

- Top 6 of 11 (based on full 10 games) and 2 Provincial Champs to AI KO QFs, with those Champs earning byes if advancing twice (most likely).

- McDonagh Cup Champ attempts to 'win their way up' by playing the 'similar quality' 11th team instead (this gives the 11th team a chance of avoiding the 'Bolger/Johnny Kelly referenced yoyo')."
You can see this being Munster 4 v Mcdonagh winners in 1 preliminary quarter final. While Leinster 3 play Munster 3 in the other.The reality in their greed the Munster teams will destroy a lot of interest in their own championship.Now isnt that very Irish.They could bring someone from RTE to make make all the draws.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1602 - 05/07/2023 14:27:50    2492438

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Replying To jobber:  "You can see this being Munster 4 v Mcdonagh winners in 1 preliminary quarter final. While Leinster 3 play Munster 3 in the other.The reality in their greed the Munster teams will destroy a lot of interest in their own championship.Now isnt that very Irish.They could bring someone from RTE to make make all the draws."
That's the road they've been going down for years.. the Leinster council just seem to be rolling over to Munsters demands every time they make tweaks to championship format

TomWex (Wexford) - Posts: 85 - 05/07/2023 19:17:03    2492520

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Replying To ZUL10:  "Letting the 4th place in Munster and Leinster into the mix will completely take from the brilliant championships we have had since the round robin started. If your going to tell me the Leinster c'ship hasnt always been great Then let the 3rd place in Leinster play the JMD winners."
Not everyone will be in favour of the top 4 going through. It depends on whether people see the glass as half full or empty. I don't mind either way. The Carlow chairman has made a good argument for the McDonagh winner keeping a preliminary quarter-final spot.
If the top 4 did go through, the top 2 will still be guaranteed at least a quarter-final spot. 3rd and 4th would have no safety net.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 06/07/2023 10:52:08    2492601

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Replying To jobber:  "You can see this being Munster 4 v Mcdonagh winners in 1 preliminary quarter final. While Leinster 3 play Munster 3 in the other.The reality in their greed the Munster teams will destroy a lot of interest in their own championship.Now isnt that very Irish.They could bring someone from RTE to make make all the draws."
Slept on it. If they have Munster 4 going through there'd be nearly no point having a Munster Round Robin. Same for Leinster. Better go back to both being knockout and let all the real Leinster counties back into the Leinster championship where they belong.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 06/07/2023 11:11:30    2492608

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Replying To Viking66:  "Slept on it. If they have Munster 4 going through there'd be nearly no point having a Munster Round Robin. Same for Leinster. Better go back to both being knockout and let all the real Leinster counties back into the Leinster championship where they belong."
The Leinster and Munster championships have to be treated equally. Currently both provinces are guaranteed 5 teams. If a window is opened to 4th in Munster, 4th in Leinster will have to receive the same opportunity. They could trial it. The advantage should be making the provincial finals and having that quarter-final safety net that 3rd and 4th will not have.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8293 - 06/07/2023 11:54:27    2492620

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Replying To Viking66:  "Slept on it. If they have Munster 4 going through there'd be nearly no point having a Munster Round Robin. Same for Leinster. Better go back to both being knockout and let all the real Leinster counties back into the Leinster championship where they belong."
My point entirely but the Munster gang are so wrapped up in their own self importance like many elements in Ireland they dont see it.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1602 - 06/07/2023 13:05:08    2492647

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Leinster and Munster championships have to be treated equally. Currently both provinces are guaranteed 5 teams. If a window is opened to 4th in Munster, 4th in Leinster will have to receive the same opportunity. They could trial it. The advantage should be making the provincial finals and having that quarter-final safety net that 3rd and 4th will not have."
But they aren't equally treated as it is at the moment. One faces relegation, the other doesn't.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 07/07/2023 09:04:02    2492785

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