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The game of football is a horrible game to watch now. This business of passing the ball over and back and kicking the ball backwards etc is ruining the game
All teams are at it now . Almost turned off the Kerry v Cork game over the weekend as I couldnt take it.
Something has to be done to stop this
I dont know what that is but the game is becoming hard to watch
What about a rule of that once you cross the half way line you cannot pass it back over the half way line ? or the opposition 65 yard line?
No players to be inside the 20m line for a kick out? Could prevent the short kick which starts it all off
Get rid of the mark? This might not change anything but should be got rid of anyway.
Maybe introduce a shot clock one you pass the half way line e.g 2 minutes?
These suggestions are a bit crazy but things cant be left as they are
aidan64 (Kerry) - Posts: 668 - 06/06/2023 10:25:26
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Replying To aidan64: "The game of football is a horrible game to watch now. This business of passing the ball over and back and kicking the ball backwards etc is ruining the game
All teams are at it now . Almost turned off the Kerry v Cork game over the weekend as I couldnt take it.
Something has to be done to stop this
I dont know what that is but the game is becoming hard to watch
What about a rule of that once you cross the half way line you cannot pass it back over the half way line ? or the opposition 65 yard line?
No players to be inside the 20m line for a kick out? Could prevent the short kick which starts it all off
Get rid of the mark? This might not change anything but should be got rid of anyway.
Maybe introduce a shot clock one you pass the half way line e.g 2 minutes?
These suggestions are a bit crazy but things cant be left as they are" It's why basketball introduced those rules like half court, back court, shot clock. I wouldn't be a fan of a shot clock rule but definitely something like the other two and having to retain X players in the opposite have, difficult to police though. I got a laugh out of a post last week where somebody said that Dublin invented the kick and rush style in 1974. I think I'd prefer it over the hand pass and walk style of the modern game. It neutralises all that's good in the game, high fielding, physical contact, accurate foot passing, athleticism and high tempo transition. It's a horrible spectacle.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4734 - 06/06/2023 10:37:59
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Replying To aidan64: "The game of football is a horrible game to watch now. This business of passing the ball over and back and kicking the ball backwards etc is ruining the game
All teams are at it now . Almost turned off the Kerry v Cork game over the weekend as I couldnt take it.
Something has to be done to stop this
I dont know what that is but the game is becoming hard to watch
What about a rule of that once you cross the half way line you cannot pass it back over the half way line ? or the opposition 65 yard line?
No players to be inside the 20m line for a kick out? Could prevent the short kick which starts it all off
Get rid of the mark? This might not change anything but should be got rid of anyway.
Maybe introduce a shot clock one you pass the half way line e.g 2 minutes?
These suggestions are a bit crazy but things cant be left as they are" Once again Im amazed to see that the handpass is not on your list. Surely the ease of keeping possession is central to all the problems. Why are so many people reluctant to either ban or curtail this minor skill,if you can even call it that. Its the elephant in the room imo. If it needs radical change then do something radical.
ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 06/06/2023 10:40:44
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Replying To ZUL10: "Once again Im amazed to see that the handpass is not on your list. Surely the ease of keeping possession is central to all the problems. Why are so many people reluctant to either ban or curtail this minor skill,if you can even call it that. Its the elephant in the room imo. If it needs radical change then do something radical." Get rid of hand and fist passing and throwing the ball over the bar.
Enforce the 4 step rule.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1944 - 06/06/2023 10:49:09
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Replying To Joxer: "It's why basketball introduced those rules like half court, back court, shot clock. I wouldn't be a fan of a shot clock rule but definitely something like the other two and having to retain X players in the opposite have, difficult to police though. I got a laugh out of a post last week where somebody said that Dublin invented the kick and rush style in 1974. I think I'd prefer it over the hand pass and walk style of the modern game. It neutralises all that's good in the game, high fielding, physical contact, accurate foot passing, athleticism and high tempo transition. It's a horrible spectacle." Not a fan of the shot clock either and yes the other 2 are difficult to police. It would be more the linesman's job I think to police those ones. Definitely agree with you on the foot passing, high fielding etc. Give me the kick and rush any day
aidan64 (Kerry) - Posts: 668 - 06/06/2023 11:04:13
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Are you only noticing now? It has been horrible to watch for 20+ years.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1257 - 06/06/2023 11:09:32
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Replying To aidan64: "The game of football is a horrible game to watch now. This business of passing the ball over and back and kicking the ball backwards etc is ruining the game
All teams are at it now . Almost turned off the Kerry v Cork game over the weekend as I couldnt take it.
Something has to be done to stop this
I dont know what that is but the game is becoming hard to watch
What about a rule of that once you cross the half way line you cannot pass it back over the half way line ? or the opposition 65 yard line?
No players to be inside the 20m line for a kick out? Could prevent the short kick which starts it all off
Get rid of the mark? This might not change anything but should be got rid of anyway.
Maybe introduce a shot clock one you pass the half way line e.g 2 minutes?
These suggestions are a bit crazy but things cant be left as they are" Kick pass only for one season then have a look again.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3045 - 06/06/2023 11:12:40
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Replying To ZUL10: "Once again Im amazed to see that the handpass is not on your list. Surely the ease of keeping possession is central to all the problems. Why are so many people reluctant to either ban or curtail this minor skill,if you can even call it that. Its the elephant in the room imo. If it needs radical change then do something radical." I think the handpass done well can be useful for breaking down blankets but I get the point that it's not how the game is being played.
I do wonder whether people are looking at the problem the wrong way around though and it's less of an issue of the team in possession and more an issue of the defensive side of things.
Louth were literally playing with 15 men behind the ball even while down in the last 10 minutes and I can't believe that was the right thing to be doing even if they did manage to get it tighter by the end.
Getting some pressure around the ball and covering the backwards pass surely has to be better than letting a team play in front of you so easily.
I'd worry that changing the rules just allows teams to continue to play this stupid way because there's even less incentive for them to press. I don't know though. It's really weird some of what's getting done on the defensive side.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 06/06/2023 11:27:18
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "Are you only noticing now? It has been horrible to watch for 20+ years." It hasn't really. The last 2-3 years have been wreckless though
aidan64 (Kerry) - Posts: 668 - 06/06/2023 12:33:50
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Replying To aidan64: "The game of football is a horrible game to watch now. This business of passing the ball over and back and kicking the ball backwards etc is ruining the game
All teams are at it now . Almost turned off the Kerry v Cork game over the weekend as I couldnt take it.
Something has to be done to stop this
I dont know what that is but the game is becoming hard to watch
What about a rule of that once you cross the half way line you cannot pass it back over the half way line ? or the opposition 65 yard line?
No players to be inside the 20m line for a kick out? Could prevent the short kick which starts it all off
Get rid of the mark? This might not change anything but should be got rid of anyway.
Maybe introduce a shot clock one you pass the half way line e.g 2 minutes?
These suggestions are a bit crazy but things cant be left as they are" What causes lateral play? Teams aren't doing it for the sake of it, they do it because defences are packed, any suggestion you made there rewards a packed defence, if you want to change how the game looks now you will have to tackle the packed defence. That would mean having a scenario where a team must always have say 3/4 players inside the opposition 45 or reduce the game to either 13 or 11 aside game. You could possibly do something on the tackle too so as to stop the swarm tackle, only one player can tackle for the ball.
I think the main issue this year is the games are meaningless and the big counties are minding themselves for the knockout games, I found the ulster final to be a great game, and it had all the negative stuff people don't like but it had intensity as there was something to play for. All this tinkering around with rules and competitions is destroying the game
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1658 - 06/06/2023 12:52:33
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think the handpass done well can be useful for breaking down blankets but I get the point that it's not how the game is being played.
I do wonder whether people are looking at the problem the wrong way around though and it's less of an issue of the team in possession and more an issue of the defensive side of things.
Louth were literally playing with 15 men behind the ball even while down in the last 10 minutes and I can't believe that was the right thing to be doing even if they did manage to get it tighter by the end.
Getting some pressure around the ball and covering the backwards pass surely has to be better than letting a team play in front of you so easily.
I'd worry that changing the rules just allows teams to continue to play this stupid way because there's even less incentive for them to press. I don't know though. It's really weird some of what's getting done on the defensive side." The handpass isn't really a problem imo.
90% of the back and forth 'boring' passing that has people complaining could easily be done with the foot, and often is.
The problem is, as you've alluded to, teams dropping off and ceding possession and territory.
Most 'solutions' that people come up with are often things that will further incentivise teams to drop off and shore up the defence.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13779 - 06/06/2023 13:37:50
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I watch very littlr football these days and when I was younger I wouldn't miss any televised game. A few years ago both Dublin and Tipp (albeit at a lower level) were the last two standing that played attractive football to watch imo. For some reason now both counties are worse than anyone.
Some great ideas here re the basketball no pass back over half way rule, shot clock, change the handpass rule and get rid of the very frustrating hand pass over the bar rule (used so often when a goal chance is on).
Personally I'd bring them all in. shot clock is probably very difficult to implement but others not so. The advanced mark seems to have done very little to have the impact we hoped it might.
There are more games televised than ever and I've less interest than ever in the game. I'd love to see stats on individual players and see how many times per game/season they kick a ball. Some players in certain positions would have little or none I'd imagine.
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 06/06/2023 16:15:57
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Replying To tiobraid: "I watch very littlr football these days and when I was younger I wouldn't miss any televised game. A few years ago both Dublin and Tipp (albeit at a lower level) were the last two standing that played attractive football to watch imo. For some reason now both counties are worse than anyone.
Some great ideas here re the basketball no pass back over half way rule, shot clock, change the handpass rule and get rid of the very frustrating hand pass over the bar rule (used so often when a goal chance is on).
Personally I'd bring them all in. shot clock is probably very difficult to implement but others not so. The advanced mark seems to have done very little to have the impact we hoped it might.
There are more games televised than ever and I've less interest than ever in the game. I'd love to see stats on individual players and see how many times per game/season they kick a ball. Some players in certain positions would have little or none I'd imagine." Saw this stat on Ciaran Kilkenny. Not singling him out. Just saw this article.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/gaa/ciaran-kilkenny-possession-stats-128004
For a forward to have only 28% passes forward. Over half of them sideways and the rest backwards
Just tells you everything about the way the game has gone
aidan64 (Kerry) - Posts: 668 - 06/06/2023 20:34:24
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Teams sit back because there is no incentive to push up. Keeping possession is too easy. You waste energy chasing shadows with little chance of reward. A rule change is needed to increase the defending teams chance of creating a turnover and therefore giving them the incentive to press high up the pitch. For me it's a quite simple and obvious change that has been mentioned many times before but never seems to gain any traction. Once you pass your 45 you can't come back. Now in theory you the defending team pushing up and the team in possession forced to play more direct.
Hopefully this gets a trial and we see how it plays in reality because I genuinely believe this will fix the game overnight.
Pantani (Dublin) - Posts: 48 - 06/06/2023 23:17:03
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1. Ban the sweeper
Free in if defenders drop into their own 45 without having someone to mark (umpires to call it)
2. Shot clock - 1 min to go from kick out to a shot or lose possession (sideline official to police)
3. 2 points for a long range point from the hand (new 45m arc to be drawn on the pitch which would also be used for sweeper ban
4. Kick out from hand to be permitted as long as it passes the 45m arc
5. Cumulative foul penalty - free shot from 45m arc for every free after 15 team fouls (sideline official to police)
6. Four points for a goal
7. No handpassed points permitted"
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 07/06/2023 02:51:39
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "1. Ban the sweeper
Free in if defenders drop into their own 45 without having someone to mark (umpires to call it)
2. Shot clock - 1 min to go from kick out to a shot or lose possession (sideline official to police)
3. 2 points for a long range point from the hand (new 45m arc to be drawn on the pitch which would also be used for sweeper ban
4. Kick out from hand to be permitted as long as it passes the 45m arc
5. Cumulative foul penalty - free shot from 45m arc for every free after 15 team fouls (sideline official to police)
6. Four points for a goal
7. No handpassed points permitted"" Why do people even consider a shot clock for Gaelic Football? A shot clock wouldn't work in Gaelic Football. From a non-contact, low skills, 5v5 sport, shorter game, more stoppages, timeouts, free throws for fouls/foul quota, in a much smaller court than a gaelic football pitch. The three point scores are from downtown not close to the basket, unlike the football three pointer. Basketball even more defensive minded, team sits in the zone to prevent scores. Easier do it in a smaller area and only need to block hands on the ball. The only similarity is you can catch a ball and bounce a ball. Basketball is nothing like Gaelic Football. Introducing it would make it easier to be more defensive, go hard on defence for 1 minute bursts, set and go again. Two great sports in their own separate ways. But if you want to watch two teams run up and down a court, look to draw fouls driving to the basket, in a non-contact sport, score 100 points each for the game to be decided, again, in the last 30 seconds of 'excitement' watch the basketball. Run the clock, shoot, turnover, clock, shoot, rinse repeat. If you want to watch men and, to a lesser extent women, have a contact sport with skills, with tactics and not putting a large ball through a basket, watch Gaelic Football. Bringing more contact into LGFA wouldn't be a bad thing, apologies, off topic. It's not that bad actually. There's just way too many games and media coverage highlights the worst they can find. Depends on the coaching if there's more risks taken. A shot clock won't prevent more defensive coaching, arguably it will promote it.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7642 - 07/06/2023 10:12:49
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Replying To Pantani: "Teams sit back because there is no incentive to push up. Keeping possession is too easy. You waste energy chasing shadows with little chance of reward. A rule change is needed to increase the defending teams chance of creating a turnover and therefore giving them the incentive to press high up the pitch. For me it's a quite simple and obvious change that has been mentioned many times before but never seems to gain any traction. Once you pass your 45 you can't come back. Now in theory you the defending team pushing up and the team in possession forced to play more direct.
Hopefully this gets a trial and we see how it plays in reality because I genuinely believe this will fix the game overnight." Good post, I agree that's a big part of the problem. The pitch is too large to press effectively.
The middle third isn't very valuable either so there's so need to win back possession there.
As another poster has said though, there's a lack of intensity in games at present because there isn't actually lots on the line right now.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 07/06/2023 10:34:01
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Agree fully that creating a legitimate contest for possession has to be part of the solution here.
Teams mass their players because there is simply no defensive alternative any more. If a proper contest for possession were created/allowed, then there would be less incentive to keep so many players away from the scoring end of the field. A huge part of this is the very lenient interpretation of steps rule on attacking players ( you can often travel 20 yards on one hop if shaping to shoot). Also, throwing the ball is bloody endemic. Under pressure? Throw it out the back to a team-mate. The 2 hops rule often overlooked too. Any ref that made an attempt to apply these rules would get some slating I'd wager.
Take the case in point of the Roscommon keep-ball incident (not their fault by the way, Dublin simply didn't engage). Roscommon clearly fouled the ball in that spell when Connor Carroll threw the ball over his shoulder under pressure. The passage of play should really have ended with a 25m free in to Dublin. We would be having a different discussion this week if so, about the dangers of messing with the ball in defence! We also saw a high scoring match between Clare and Monaghan at the weekend, which was due in no small part to a referee who blew the whistle at the slightest hint of a tackle. No wonder the teams kicked nearly 20 points each.
I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of this problem, and it is not addressed by some of the mooted changes to rules. Suggestions like 13-a-side will make the situation worse because there will be even more space to play keep-ball in. As for a shot clock, we do not want football to become a turns-based game like rugby league or basketball, where possession is turned over, not competed for.
In all potential changes, there must also be a recognition of the workload on referees. Probably >80% of all matches played in a given year are covered by a lone referee acting with the help of some at-least partially partisan attendees. The rules need to be implementable, need to reward skill with the ball and without, and should create a legitimate contest for the ball. I wouldn't go adding too many rules without first removing a few. Tightening some existing rules might be a more appropriate response:
My changes would be:
1. Abolish the forward mark
2. Abolish the hand-passed point, and hand-passed goal from ball put in flight from a handpass
3. Over-carrying: Implement 5 steps max before solo/hop and an indirect free as penalty. (indirect free kicks take the pressure off referees in giving technical frees against players emerging from defence). Clarify that holding ball while static (>3 seconds) is over-carrying also
4. Throw ball defined as simultaneous movement of holding hand/ no clear striking action- indirect free as penalty
5. Deliberately dropping the ball when tackled is treated as a throw- indirect free kick
6. Player going to ground in possession (one knee on the ground) must release ball immediately otherwise indirect free kick. Players going to ground to gather possession must be afforded opportunity to regain standing position, but can be challenged for the ball by more than one opposing player once they do so
7. If the ball is brought back over their own '45 line by a team in possession, then the ball cannot be hand-passed until it has crossed the '45 again (this can be managed by referees similar to the forward mark, but will replace the forward mark in the workload as such). Teams that turn over possession inside their own 45 can advance the ball by hand-passing as per rules
8. A player in receipt of a kick out inside their own 45 may not return the ball directly to the goalkeeper and must kick the ball as a first offload/pass
9. 2 points for a point scored from outside 45m
Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1121 - 08/06/2023 15:43:41
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Imagine getting a free shot for simply catching the ball, the mark should always be an indirect free. In terms of officiating, there are 7 officials, 3 are qualified refs, 4 dont have to be. 2 of the 3 have far less involvement in the game than the umpires.
Playing keep ball is the real problem unless you limit the time you can be in possesion I cannot see how you can break this chokehold.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4939 - 08/06/2023 16:34:29
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Replying To Eddie the Exile: "Agree fully that creating a legitimate contest for possession has to be part of the solution here.
Teams mass their players because there is simply no defensive alternative any more. If a proper contest for possession were created/allowed, then there would be less incentive to keep so many players away from the scoring end of the field. A huge part of this is the very lenient interpretation of steps rule on attacking players ( you can often travel 20 yards on one hop if shaping to shoot). Also, throwing the ball is bloody endemic. Under pressure? Throw it out the back to a team-mate. The 2 hops rule often overlooked too. Any ref that made an attempt to apply these rules would get some slating I'd wager.
Take the case in point of the Roscommon keep-ball incident (not their fault by the way, Dublin simply didn't engage). Roscommon clearly fouled the ball in that spell when Connor Carroll threw the ball over his shoulder under pressure. The passage of play should really have ended with a 25m free in to Dublin. We would be having a different discussion this week if so, about the dangers of messing with the ball in defence! We also saw a high scoring match between Clare and Monaghan at the weekend, which was due in no small part to a referee who blew the whistle at the slightest hint of a tackle. No wonder the teams kicked nearly 20 points each.
I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of this problem, and it is not addressed by some of the mooted changes to rules. Suggestions like 13-a-side will make the situation worse because there will be even more space to play keep-ball in. As for a shot clock, we do not want football to become a turns-based game like rugby league or basketball, where possession is turned over, not competed for.
In all potential changes, there must also be a recognition of the workload on referees. Probably >80% of all matches played in a given year are covered by a lone referee acting with the help of some at-least partially partisan attendees. The rules need to be implementable, need to reward skill with the ball and without, and should create a legitimate contest for the ball. I wouldn't go adding too many rules without first removing a few. Tightening some existing rules might be a more appropriate response:
My changes would be:
1. Abolish the forward mark
2. Abolish the hand-passed point, and hand-passed goal from ball put in flight from a handpass
3. Over-carrying: Implement 5 steps max before solo/hop and an indirect free as penalty. (indirect free kicks take the pressure off referees in giving technical frees against players emerging from defence). Clarify that holding ball while static (>3 seconds) is over-carrying also
4. Throw ball defined as simultaneous movement of holding hand/ no clear striking action- indirect free as penalty
5. Deliberately dropping the ball when tackled is treated as a throw- indirect free kick
6. Player going to ground in possession (one knee on the ground) must release ball immediately otherwise indirect free kick. Players going to ground to gather possession must be afforded opportunity to regain standing position, but can be challenged for the ball by more than one opposing player once they do so
7. If the ball is brought back over their own '45 line by a team in possession, then the ball cannot be hand-passed until it has crossed the '45 again (this can be managed by referees similar to the forward mark, but will replace the forward mark in the workload as such). Teams that turn over possession inside their own 45 can advance the ball by hand-passing as per rules
8. A player in receipt of a kick out inside their own 45 may not return the ball directly to the goalkeeper and must kick the ball as a first offload/pass
9. 2 points for a point scored from outside 45m" Not bad, I like the last one but I presume from play only. I have an issue with no.5 when you have to distinguish between deliberate or not you're on a loser.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 793 - 08/06/2023 16:43:45
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