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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "It's not excuses it just being realistic, Ballyhale were down 5 players this year and they caught in Kilkenny because of it." And what's the excuse for the the last time gorey were full strength in leinster champ they got beaten by Ballyhale by nearly 20 points I think. Ballyhale down 5 players would still hammer every senior team in wexford
grassroots01 (Wexford) - Posts: 176 - 14/11/2023 12:58:00
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Replying To grassroots01: "And what's the excuse for the the last time gorey were full strength in leinster champ they got beaten by Ballyhale by nearly 20 points I think. Ballyhale down 5 players would still hammer every senior team in wexford" 1. That's 5 years ago so has very little relevance to this topic.
2. We were actually lifting the Bob O'Keeffe cup in Croke Park 7 months later, not much relevance either but just showing you that you can cherry pick facts to back up your argument.
3. A Ballyhale and Ballygunner at full throttle beat every other club well in Munster and Leinster except Na Pairsaigh in my opinion.
4. I agree Ballyhale would have won Wexford well this year down those players but the point I'm making is they dropped from the best team in Ireland to a team they nearly won their county.
5. Its clear all you want to do is give out and can't cope with your opinion being challenged.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 14/11/2023 13:12:14
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Replying To Onfor15: "We don't have groups of 5. We have groups of 6" Sorry you know what I meant. We have 5 group games
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2023 13:14:24
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "Poor mentality, our championship record vs KK and Galway last 2 years is 2 wins draw and a loss, v Westmeath its a draw and loss, try figure that out." It's called inconsistency. We are not able to compete with the big teams on a consistent basis. We peak for a game or two and get a couple of results but we can't do it when it gets to knockout hurling against the bigger teams.
WexMurph (Wexford) - Posts: 237 - 14/11/2023 13:18:49
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Replying To WexMurph: "It's called inconsistency. We are not able to compete with the big teams on a consistent basis. We peak for a game or two and get a couple of results but we can't do it when it gets to knockout hurling against the bigger teams." I agree and trying to fix the inconsistency issue will be massive for Rossi.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 14/11/2023 13:47:16
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Replying To Viking66: "Sorry you know what I meant. We have 5 group games" Yes, but we have 8 rounds of games in the championship. If going for blocks then 4 blocks of 2 weeks is the obvious way
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 533 - 14/11/2023 13:47:31
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I know there has been alot of talk here about championship structures etc? I wonder is there any prosposals for to increase the gradings to 15 teams. So three groups of 5, Top 2 in each group into quarter finals, the teams that come third into Preliminary quarter final plus the best 4th placed team from the three groups. Winners of preliminary quarter finals into quarters and finish to end. It gives every team a week off in the group stage while also giving the top two teams in each group a week off before there quarter finals. Would make groups very competitive. For relegation, bottom team in each group plus the lowest points team that finished 4th into Relegation semis.
You might not increase the competitiveness of the senior by adding three intermediate teams but I would think Rathnure, Buffers Alley and maybe Bunclody would hold there own.
Maybe its a bit convoluted but would mean only one less game in the groups stage while also giving teams a much needed break.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 443 - 14/11/2023 13:48:03
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Replying To grassroots01: "And what's the excuse for the the last time gorey were full strength in leinster champ they got beaten by Ballyhale by nearly 20 points I think. Ballyhale down 5 players would still hammer every senior team in wexford" Gorey five years ago was probably a real case of a team being in bonus territory by just being in the Leinster Championship at all.
They'd just won their first-ever senior hurling title and obviously celebrated hard for some of the time between the county final and their Leinster tie.
Ballyhale, on the other hand, were a team made up of players with several Kilkenny titles, a couple of Leinsters, an All-Ireland from 2015, and some players with earlier All-Irelands. That 2018 campaign and the match v Gorey was the start of a journey that saw them win four Leinsters and three All-Irelands since then. Okay, they beat Gorey by 16 points, but they also beat Ballyboden by 16 points in the Leinster Final that year, and went on to beat St. Thomas' of Galway by 17 points in the All-Ireland Final. Their only close match was the All-Ireland semi-final, where they ended up beating Ballygunner by five.
Overall, It's generally held that Ballyhale 2018 to 2023 are one of the finest club teams ever, and that they were really at the height of their powers in 2018 & '19.
Is that an "excuse" for Gorey losing to them like that, or a reason?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 14/11/2023 13:57:24
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Replying To alwaysasub: "I know there has been alot of talk here about championship structures etc? I wonder is there any prosposals for to increase the gradings to 15 teams. So three groups of 5, Top 2 in each group into quarter finals, the teams that come third into Preliminary quarter final plus the best 4th placed team from the three groups. Winners of preliminary quarter finals into quarters and finish to end. It gives every team a week off in the group stage while also giving the top two teams in each group a week off before there quarter finals. Would make groups very competitive. For relegation, bottom team in each group plus the lowest points team that finished 4th into Relegation semis.
You might not increase the competitiveness of the senior by adding three intermediate teams but I would think Rathnure, Buffers Alley and maybe Bunclody would hold there own.
Maybe its a bit convoluted but would mean only one less game in the groups stage while also giving teams a much needed break." Always good to hear new ideas, but there's an immediate problem there when you work through the scheduling of it.
It would still take five rounds of matches to play the group stages. And then you're introducing a new knock-out round (the preliminary quarter-finals), so there'd be four knock-out rounds, and an overall total of nine rounds. That's one more than we currently have.
Do the same in football, and suddenly we need 18 rounds of matches to run our championships, instead of 16.
The calendar itself won't have any more weeks in it, so you'd be looking at midweek matches in the group stages, and there'd still be no provision for a free weekend at the latter stages in case a replay was needed or if pitches were unplayable.
So, clubs would have a free round in the group stages all right, but they probably wouldn't have a free week.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 14/11/2023 14:05:07
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "1. That's 5 years ago so has very little relevance to this topic.
2. We were actually lifting the Bob O'Keeffe cup in Croke Park 7 months later, not much relevance either but just showing you that you can cherry pick facts to back up your argument.
3. A Ballyhale and Ballygunner at full throttle beat every other club well in Munster and Leinster except Na Pairsaigh in my opinion.
4. I agree Ballyhale would have won Wexford well this year down those players but the point I'm making is they dropped from the best team in Ireland to a team they nearly won their county.
5. Its clear all you want to do is give out and can't cope with your opinion being challenged." Not at all - I just don't look for excuses when as a county we are clearly falling behind the pack. If Gorey were full strength on Sunday even with the 2 Molloys and JJ they still would have been well beaten. MLR and O'Louglhins would have beaten them too and any other team in Wexford which shows where we are in the pecking order. Also has Eoin Conroy been injured or just not picked? Still young enough to offer something and only brought on in injury time?
grassroots01 (Wexford) - Posts: 176 - 14/11/2023 14:07:23
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Replying To Onfor15: "Yes, but we have 8 rounds of games in the championship. If going for blocks then 4 blocks of 2 weeks is the obvious way" Some clubs have only 5. Most have 6 ok. But 4hats including a knockout game
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2023 14:12:55
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Replying To alwaysasub: "I know there has been alot of talk here about championship structures etc? I wonder is there any prosposals for to increase the gradings to 15 teams. So three groups of 5, Top 2 in each group into quarter finals, the teams that come third into Preliminary quarter final plus the best 4th placed team from the three groups. Winners of preliminary quarter finals into quarters and finish to end. It gives every team a week off in the group stage while also giving the top two teams in each group a week off before there quarter finals. Would make groups very competitive. For relegation, bottom team in each group plus the lowest points team that finished 4th into Relegation semis.
You might not increase the competitiveness of the senior by adding three intermediate teams but I would think Rathnure, Buffers Alley and maybe Bunclody would hold there own.
Maybe its a bit convoluted but would mean only one less game in the groups stage while also giving teams a much needed break." None of those teams made an Intermediate semi final this year!!!!!! Only 1 was even in a QF!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2023 14:14:33
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Replying To grassroots01: "Not at all - I just don't look for excuses when as a county we are clearly falling behind the pack. If Gorey were full strength on Sunday even with the 2 Molloys and JJ they still would have been well beaten. MLR and O'Louglhins would have beaten them too and any other team in Wexford which shows where we are in the pecking order. Also has Eoin Conroy been injured or just not picked? Still young enough to offer something and only brought on in injury time?" How do you mean falling behind? MLR beat Oulart 10 years ago. Offaly clubs have more club AI titles than ours do. Our clubs were always behind the pack. The Alley are the only Wexford club to ever win a Senior AI club title.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2023 14:30:56
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Replying To grassroots01: "Not at all - I just don't look for excuses when as a county we are clearly falling behind the pack. If Gorey were full strength on Sunday even with the 2 Molloys and JJ they still would have been well beaten. MLR and O'Louglhins would have beaten them too and any other team in Wexford which shows where we are in the pecking order. Also has Eoin Conroy been injured or just not picked? Still young enough to offer something and only brought on in injury time?" He's had issues with his hip all year as far as I know.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 14/11/2023 14:32:41
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Replying To Viking66: "None of those teams made an Intermediate semi final this year!!!!!! Only 1 was even in a QF!" Thinking you would respond when your beloved Taghmon werent mentioned :). Say the top 3 intermediate teams, maybe too many teams senior but I do think it would solve giving teams a week off if Leinster GAA arent going to change their start dates.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 443 - 14/11/2023 15:16:16
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Following on from what Cragask says above about the sort of practice matches Kilcormac-Killoughey were able to play, I've been having a look at how things operate in Offaly, compared to how they do here. It's interesting:
- In Offaly, their football championships this year were two groups of four in the top four grades. Their hurling championships were two groups of five. The group games were played on alternate weeks in July & August.
- Kilcormac-Killoughey competed only in Junior Football - the fourth grade, after Senior, Senior 'B', and Intermediate. Being so low down the grades suggests football is not really a priority with them anyway. They lost their first two matches and so were effectively out of the championship by the end of July. While they still had to play a third game (which they won) on 13th August, they were completely finished with football then, and so could concentrate 100% on hurling for the 13 weeks between then and the match last Sunday.
- Gorey, by contrast, had to play football in nine of the 12 weeks between winning our hurling title on 20th August and competing in Leinster Hurling last Sunday.
- As well as anything else, this meant that they couldn't pick up the sort of practice matches that the Offaly side did. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Ferns man last year. He told me that during September/October, they were approached by two leading Dublin clubs and one from Kilkenny, who were looking for practice matches in what were "off weeks" in the hurling championships in those counties. They couldn't take any of them, because they had to play football on all those weekends instead.
I'm inclined to suggest the elephant is back in the room. It could be argued that our poor record in Leinster Club hurling is not just down to a 12 or 13 week gap between County FInal and first Leinster match, but is also down to how clubs have to spend so much time playing football, instead of concentrating on being the best they can be in hurling.
Same thing obviously applies in the other direction. Our top football clubs would be better at football if they didn't have to spend so much time hurling as well.
Would we actually be better off if some clubs concentrated 95% or more on football, and the rest did on hurling, instead of just about everywhere being a dual club? Realistically, won't ever happen, but just throwing it out there anyway.
Pesky elephant! :)" I agree pikemen.
cragask1234 (Wexford) - Posts: 29 - 14/11/2023 15:35:19
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Replying To alwaysasub: "Thinking you would respond when your beloved Taghmon werent mentioned :). Say the top 3 intermediate teams, maybe too many teams senior but I do think it would solve giving teams a week off if Leinster GAA arent going to change their start dates." I agree in principle with what you are saying though. It will expose more players in the county to better opposition and standard of hurling.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2023 16:46:25
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Following on from what Cragask says above about the sort of practice matches Kilcormac-Killoughey were able to play, I've been having a look at how things operate in Offaly, compared to how they do here. It's interesting:
- In Offaly, their football championships this year were two groups of four in the top four grades. Their hurling championships were two groups of five. The group games were played on alternate weeks in July & August.
- Kilcormac-Killoughey competed only in Junior Football - the fourth grade, after Senior, Senior 'B', and Intermediate. Being so low down the grades suggests football is not really a priority with them anyway. They lost their first two matches and so were effectively out of the championship by the end of July. While they still had to play a third game (which they won) on 13th August, they were completely finished with football then, and so could concentrate 100% on hurling for the 13 weeks between then and the match last Sunday.
- Gorey, by contrast, had to play football in nine of the 12 weeks between winning our hurling title on 20th August and competing in Leinster Hurling last Sunday.
- As well as anything else, this meant that they couldn't pick up the sort of practice matches that the Offaly side did. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Ferns man last year. He told me that during September/October, they were approached by two leading Dublin clubs and one from Kilkenny, who were looking for practice matches in what were "off weeks" in the hurling championships in those counties. They couldn't take any of them, because they had to play football on all those weekends instead.
I'm inclined to suggest the elephant is back in the room. It could be argued that our poor record in Leinster Club hurling is not just down to a 12 or 13 week gap between County FInal and first Leinster match, but is also down to how clubs have to spend so much time playing football, instead of concentrating on being the best they can be in hurling.
Same thing obviously applies in the other direction. Our top football clubs would be better at football if they didn't have to spend so much time hurling as well.
Would we actually be better off if some clubs concentrated 95% or more on football, and the rest did on hurling, instead of just about everywhere being a dual club? Realistically, won't ever happen, but just throwing it out there anyway.
Pesky elephant! :)" Which clubs should concentrate on which code do you think Pikeman? Should it be 24 concentrating on each? Should it be decided by whether a teams 1st team finished higher in hurling or football?
Using that as a yardstick the only New Ross District clubs that went further in hurling than football this year were Taghmon and Geraldine O'Hanrahans.
Rapps/Starlight and Monageer are the only clubs got to the exact same stage in both hurling and football I think. Other Clubs that did better in Hurling were St Martins, Harriers, Oylegate, Ballygarret, Gorey, Askamore, Davidstown, Crossabeg, Oulart, Rathnure, Clonard, St Anne's, Craanford, the Alley, cloughbawn, Blackwater, Shamrocks,
Clubs that went further in Football- All the Ross District clubs bar 2, Barntown, Sars, Vols, Joe's, Mary's Maudlintown, Kilanerin, Castletown, Shels, Bunclody, St Mary's Rosslare, Kilmore, Duffry, Ballyhogue, OLI, St Patricks
I've probably missed a few as I'm not an encyclopedia, not sure how St Fintans went, but the above makes us more of a football county as only 19 of our clubs did better at hurling than they did at football;-)
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2023 19:44:59
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Following on from what Cragask says above about the sort of practice matches Kilcormac-Killoughey were able to play, I've been having a look at how things operate in Offaly, compared to how they do here. It's interesting:
- In Offaly, their football championships this year were two groups of four in the top four grades. Their hurling championships were two groups of five. The group games were played on alternate weeks in July & August.
- Kilcormac-Killoughey competed only in Junior Football - the fourth grade, after Senior, Senior 'B', and Intermediate. Being so low down the grades suggests football is not really a priority with them anyway. They lost their first two matches and so were effectively out of the championship by the end of July. While they still had to play a third game (which they won) on 13th August, they were completely finished with football then, and so could concentrate 100% on hurling for the 13 weeks between then and the match last Sunday.
- Gorey, by contrast, had to play football in nine of the 12 weeks between winning our hurling title on 20th August and competing in Leinster Hurling last Sunday.
- As well as anything else, this meant that they couldn't pick up the sort of practice matches that the Offaly side did. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Ferns man last year. He told me that during September/October, they were approached by two leading Dublin clubs and one from Kilkenny, who were looking for practice matches in what were "off weeks" in the hurling championships in those counties. They couldn't take any of them, because they had to play football on all those weekends instead.
I'm inclined to suggest the elephant is back in the room. It could be argued that our poor record in Leinster Club hurling is not just down to a 12 or 13 week gap between County FInal and first Leinster match, but is also down to how clubs have to spend so much time playing football, instead of concentrating on being the best they can be in hurling.
Same thing obviously applies in the other direction. Our top football clubs would be better at football if they didn't have to spend so much time hurling as well.
Would we actually be better off if some clubs concentrated 95% or more on football, and the rest did on hurling, instead of just about everywhere being a dual club? Realistically, won't ever happen, but just throwing it out there anyway.
Pesky elephant! :)" Which clubs should concentrate on which code do you think Pikeman? Should it be 24 concentrating on each? Should it be decided by whether a teams 1st team finished higher in hurling or football?
Using that as a yardstick the only New Ross District clubs that went further in hurling than football this year were Taghmon and Geraldine O'Hanrahans.
Rapps/Starlight and Monageer are the only clubs got to the exact same stage in both hurling and football I think. Other Clubs that did better in Hurling were St Martins, Harriers, Oylegate, Ballygarret, Gorey, Askamore, Davidstown, Crossabeg, Oulart, Rathnure, Clonard, St Anne's, Craanford, the Alley, cloughbawn, Blackwater, Shamrocks,
Clubs that went further in Football- All the Ross District clubs bar 2, Barntown, Sars, Vols, Joe's, Mary's Maudlintown, Kilanerin, Castletown, Shels, Bunclody, St Mary's Rosslare, Kilmore, Duffry, Ballyhogue, OLI, St Patricks
I've probably missed a few as I'm not an encyclopedia, not sure how St Fintans went, but the above makes us more of a football county as only 19 of our clubs did better at hurling than they did at football;-)
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2023 19:45:11
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Following on from what Cragask says above about the sort of practice matches Kilcormac-Killoughey were able to play, I've been having a look at how things operate in Offaly, compared to how they do here. It's interesting:
- In Offaly, their football championships this year were two groups of four in the top four grades. Their hurling championships were two groups of five. The group games were played on alternate weeks in July & August.
- Kilcormac-Killoughey competed only in Junior Football - the fourth grade, after Senior, Senior 'B', and Intermediate. Being so low down the grades suggests football is not really a priority with them anyway. They lost their first two matches and so were effectively out of the championship by the end of July. While they still had to play a third game (which they won) on 13th August, they were completely finished with football then, and so could concentrate 100% on hurling for the 13 weeks between then and the match last Sunday.
- Gorey, by contrast, had to play football in nine of the 12 weeks between winning our hurling title on 20th August and competing in Leinster Hurling last Sunday.
- As well as anything else, this meant that they couldn't pick up the sort of practice matches that the Offaly side did. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Ferns man last year. He told me that during September/October, they were approached by two leading Dublin clubs and one from Kilkenny, who were looking for practice matches in what were "off weeks" in the hurling championships in those counties. They couldn't take any of them, because they had to play football on all those weekends instead.
I'm inclined to suggest the elephant is back in the room. It could be argued that our poor record in Leinster Club hurling is not just down to a 12 or 13 week gap between County FInal and first Leinster match, but is also down to how clubs have to spend so much time playing football, instead of concentrating on being the best they can be in hurling.
Same thing obviously applies in the other direction. Our top football clubs would be better at football if they didn't have to spend so much time hurling as well.
Would we actually be better off if some clubs concentrated 95% or more on football, and the rest did on hurling, instead of just about everywhere being a dual club? Realistically, won't ever happen, but just throwing it out there anyway.
Pesky elephant! :)" Marshalstown and St Fintans went further in hurling also. So 21 clubs did better in Hurling than football. So more clubs did better at football than they did at hurling.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2023 20:39:30
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