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Replying To Pikeman96: "Roughly 60 refs this year at adult level. Four or five of them do hurling only, and another four or five do football only.
There should be about 15 more coming on board next year - they're the new refs this year, who were only doing Coiste na nÓg this year, but who should graduate to adult matches next year as well.
If you need three per fixture (referee plus two official linesmen), probably answers my earlier question about where you'd play those League matches, since probably wouldn't be enough to go around if all those games played individually at club grounds. One of the reasons why double-headers are played is it makes easier to have officials - e.g. somebody can referee the first match and do the line in the second one, or you could have the same linesmen at both.
Incidentally, another point on your initial suggestion about player grading, that the first half of the League (without inter-county players) wouldn't affect it, but the second half would - am afraid it's also a non-runner.
All those games would have to constitute either a League (i.e. a separate competition, where player grading isn't affected by any of them), or the round-robin stages of a championship, where every match would affect grading. You couldn't play half of it with one system and the other half with a different system." The 2 Intermediate games in Patricks Park had no linesmen today. And the 2nd game had no scoreboard either.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 27/08/2023 21:37:58
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Roughly 60 refs this year at adult level. Four or five of them do hurling only, and another four or five do football only.
There should be about 15 more coming on board next year - they're the new refs this year, who were only doing Coiste na nÓg this year, but who should graduate to adult matches next year as well.
If you need three per fixture (referee plus two official linesmen), probably answers my earlier question about where you'd play those League matches, since probably wouldn't be enough to go around if all those games played individually at club grounds. One of the reasons why double-headers are played is it makes easier to have officials - e.g. somebody can referee the first match and do the line in the second one, or you could have the same linesmen at both.
Incidentally, another point on your initial suggestion about player grading, that the first half of the League (without inter-county players) wouldn't affect it, but the second half would - am afraid it's also a non-runner.
All those games would have to constitute either a League (i.e. a separate competition, where player grading isn't affected by any of them), or the round-robin stages of a championship, where every match would affect grading. You couldn't play half of it with one system and the other half with a different system." Yeah fair point about needing that many refs so maybe neutral venues with double or triple headers.
On the regrading point I don't see the problem with it. They done it a few years ago think was when minor first got switched from u18 to u17 that 18 year old could play every grade up until quarter final stage. And there would probably be only a handful of players where it might actually effect it. I doubt say Ricky fox from Raps or podge doran from oylgate would want to play 2 or 3 games in the one weekend and get burnt out closer to end of championship or risk getting injured for a grade they wouldn't be playing later on anyway. It be more for your example of 5 or 6 lads on county team which means pulling 5 or 6 lads from the 2nd team and so on which if didn't get rid of regrading could mean few lads left in limbo and not playing any games for the rest of the year when county lads come back.
Really this is all pipe dreams anyway. The only change I could see would be to alternating weeks and that would be at a push. I'd put money on the championship next year been the same way as this year
camánouttathat (Wexford) - Posts: 55 - 27/08/2023 21:41:30
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Replying To Viking66: "The 2 Intermediate games in Patricks Park had no linesmen today. And the 2nd game had no scoreboard either." There's supposed to be official linesmen on duty at all championship matches in the top three grades. Have absolutely no idea then why there weren't linesmen in St. Patrick's Park.
As for the scoreboard, presume you mean it was working for the first match, but not the second? Also strange.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 27/08/2023 22:18:41
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Replying To camánouttathat: "Yeah fair point about needing that many refs so maybe neutral venues with double or triple headers.
On the regrading point I don't see the problem with it. They done it a few years ago think was when minor first got switched from u18 to u17 that 18 year old could play every grade up until quarter final stage. And there would probably be only a handful of players where it might actually effect it. I doubt say Ricky fox from Raps or podge doran from oylgate would want to play 2 or 3 games in the one weekend and get burnt out closer to end of championship or risk getting injured for a grade they wouldn't be playing later on anyway. It be more for your example of 5 or 6 lads on county team which means pulling 5 or 6 lads from the 2nd team and so on which if didn't get rid of regrading could mean few lads left in limbo and not playing any games for the rest of the year when county lads come back.
Really this is all pipe dreams anyway. The only change I could see would be to alternating weeks and that would be at a push. I'd put money on the championship next year been the same way as this year" The grading thing you suggested maybe could be done by way of a derogation from Croke Park, but they're not easy to get, and one for that could be even harder to get since Wexford have already had two in recent years:
- One for the 'free grading' system you mention for players in their first year out of minor, when minor was U17
- The other for the ongoing Tara Rocks/Kilanerin arrangement that's being discussed in another thread.
As for next year's system, think myself there's a bit more of a push for going back to alternate weeks or alternate blocks, but I could be completely wrong. And even so, I'd expect the vote to be every bit as close as last year's anyway.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 27/08/2023 22:23:57
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Replying To Pikeman96: "There's supposed to be official linesmen on duty at all championship matches in the top three grades. Have absolutely no idea then why there weren't linesmen in St. Patrick's Park.
As for the scoreboard, presume you mean it was working for the first match, but not the second? Also strange." The scoreboard got the shutters pulled on it after the 1st game and they didn't reopen it for the 2nd. Also I had to buy 2 seperate tickets for the 2 games. They weren't sold as a double header.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 28/08/2023 08:25:12
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I think something has to be done about the volume of games . Players surely must be fed up bring flogged not by their clubs but by the system .
From start of county championship until the end possibility of 16 weeks Straight if they go well at both codes . When do these young lads in their prime get a chance to be young lads , go on holidays let their hair down .
Its mental really if the drop out was bad before I can only imagine what it's going to be like in the future . Take for instance Electric picnic this weekend how many clubs will be missing players maybe not the first teams but mist definitely the 2ñd or 3rd teams will suffer can yiu blame young lads no .
If you are 18 to 30year old u will never get to go if you don't want to leave your team without a player. (Not going to say let yiur team down because that is not fair ) .
Book a holiday possibly 2 important games missed .
Now everyone will say go before or after championship . With who . Holiday season is summertime especially if your friends are gaa players . You are schoolteacher which tbh so many are . I ve no answers maybe a 2 week period in middle may be a solution I kniw ut happened in London in 80 90s? as was told by a friend while discussing issues .
Or2x 1 weeek breaks for adult games . If it goes back to week on week reducing games might be an option .
People making fixtures and decisions are nt the people playing . Let's think if wats ro keep the lads playing
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 299 - 28/08/2023 08:46:03
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Replying To Formertownie: "I think something has to be done about the volume of games . Players surely must be fed up bring flogged not by their clubs but by the system .
From start of county championship until the end possibility of 16 weeks Straight if they go well at both codes . When do these young lads in their prime get a chance to be young lads , go on holidays let their hair down .
Its mental really if the drop out was bad before I can only imagine what it's going to be like in the future . Take for instance Electric picnic this weekend how many clubs will be missing players maybe not the first teams but mist definitely the 2ñd or 3rd teams will suffer can yiu blame young lads no .
If you are 18 to 30year old u will never get to go if you don't want to leave your team without a player. (Not going to say let yiur team down because that is not fair ) .
Book a holiday possibly 2 important games missed .
Now everyone will say go before or after championship . With who . Holiday season is summertime especially if your friends are gaa players . You are schoolteacher which tbh so many are . I ve no answers maybe a 2 week period in middle may be a solution I kniw ut happened in London in 80 90s? as was told by a friend while discussing issues .
Or2x 1 weeek breaks for adult games . If it goes back to week on week reducing games might be an option .
People making fixtures and decisions are nt the people playing . Let's think if wats ro keep the lads playing" With respect, I'm not sure you understand the system. It's not the top table of the Co. Board or the CCCC deciding by themselves to run the championships this way. Clubs vote every November on the championship structure for the following year, with the vote of just about every club delegate reflecting the majority view of players within that club, and they consistently vote for this system that takes 16 rounds of matches to complete. And if there are only 16 weeks available in the calendar, then obviously it has to be week on week.
You'd get the rest weeks you're looking for by going back for example to the system of the two "Covid championships" - four groups of three. But there was absolutely no appetite to continue this as soon as the option to revert to two groups of six was back on the table.
And as previously stated, no appetite either to work in a few rest weeks by accepting that club championships wouldn't be finished in time to have champions compete in Leinster.
Playing up to 16 weeks in a row is a big commitment all right, but it's the clubs (guided by their players) who vote to have it that way in the first place.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 28/08/2023 10:12:35
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Replying To Viking66: "The scoreboard got the shutters pulled on it after the 1st game and they didn't reopen it for the 2nd. Also I had to buy 2 seperate tickets for the 2 games. They weren't sold as a double header." Strange all round then, if you throw that ticketing thing into the mix as well.
I did notice the running order of those two games was switched around at relatively short notice, for some reason. Might have been some sort of oversight or human error as the ticketing system was being updated. But again, I really don't know.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 28/08/2023 11:00:53
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Replying To Formertownie: "I think something has to be done about the volume of games . Players surely must be fed up bring flogged not by their clubs but by the system .
From start of county championship until the end possibility of 16 weeks Straight if they go well at both codes . When do these young lads in their prime get a chance to be young lads , go on holidays let their hair down .
Its mental really if the drop out was bad before I can only imagine what it's going to be like in the future . Take for instance Electric picnic this weekend how many clubs will be missing players maybe not the first teams but mist definitely the 2ñd or 3rd teams will suffer can yiu blame young lads no .
If you are 18 to 30year old u will never get to go if you don't want to leave your team without a player. (Not going to say let yiur team down because that is not fair ) .
Book a holiday possibly 2 important games missed .
Now everyone will say go before or after championship . With who . Holiday season is summertime especially if your friends are gaa players . You are schoolteacher which tbh so many are . I ve no answers maybe a 2 week period in middle may be a solution I kniw ut happened in London in 80 90s? as was told by a friend while discussing issues .
Or2x 1 weeek breaks for adult games . If it goes back to week on week reducing games might be an option .
People making fixtures and decisions are nt the people playing . Let's think if wats ro keep the lads playing" Personally think we need to go back to 3 groups of 4 teams. I know in my club we lads are physically and mentally burned out with the amount of games week on week and the football is only getting going.
Afinestick (Wexford) - Posts: 999 - 28/08/2023 11:33:42
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Replying To Afinestick: "Personally think we need to go back to 3 groups of 4 teams. I know in my club we lads are physically and mentally burned out with the amount of games week on week and the football is only getting going." Correct. Or 4 groups of three. Similar to Covid championship. Too many matches, Co. Board making too much money however will be a blocking in it.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 28/08/2023 11:42:15
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Strange all round then, if you throw that ticketing thing into the mix as well.
I did notice the running order of those two games was switched around at relatively short notice, for some reason. Might have been some sort of oversight or human error as the ticketing system was being updated. But again, I really don't know." There was over an hour gap between the games too. No linesmen was very strange. No scoreboard was a real pain too. Didn't see it at any of the hurling games.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 28/08/2023 11:55:50
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Replying To countyman2022: "Correct. Or 4 groups of three. Similar to Covid championship. Too many matches, Co. Board making too much money however will be a blocking in it." What would be wrong with 4 groups of 4?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 28/08/2023 11:56:27
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To be fair this isnt on the county board. But honestly our championship structure is an example of what not to do in terms of player burnout etc.
And tbh im not sure in many clubs how many players actually have a say, from my experience these decisions get made by committees and whoever is on it, evidenced this year by players from certain clubs questioning things their own club pushed in the first place!!
We are in a completely different world now since 2019 and are still trying to run the same championship structure within a timescale that doesnt actually work.
I think we need as a county to have a complete review of our championship structures led by the county board and what can work, what are the options etc before we decide what we do going forward. Clubs are just myopic voting simply whats works best for them, that doesnt necessarily lead to whats best overall.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1423 - 28/08/2023 11:58:42
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Replying To countyman2022: "Correct. Or 4 groups of three. Similar to Covid championship. Too many matches, Co. Board making too much money however will be a blocking in it." Four groups of three has been proposed in the past, but issue is there were never enough people convinced of a "fair" way of getting eight qualifiers for quarter-finals from just three groups. The obvious suggestion of the three group winners, three runners-up, and the two "best" third-placed teams could be skewed when deciding those third-placed teams, depending on who else is in each group.
Also, for clarity, since the term "County Board" often gets thrown around wrongly in discussions like these:
- County Board is actually the full Board, including all club delegates, the top table, and representatives of other organistions/groups such as the District Committees, schools, and even Scór
- County Board Management (Coiste Bainistí) is the top table of Co. Board, and is what people are usually actually referring to when they just say "County Board"
- CCCC is a separate committee again - some of its members are also on Coiste Bainistí, but others are not on it.
Coiste Bainistí and CCCC actually supported a continuation of four groups of three after the Covid championships ended, but clubs overwhelmingly rejected it. They didn't like how you could be out of the championship after only two matches, maybe in the space of a week, and they wanted more games.
So yeah, County Board did block the system of four groups of three, but not "County Board" in the sense that you probably mean it, and not for fear of loss of revenue.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 28/08/2023 12:43:34
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Replying To Viking66: "There was over an hour gap between the games too. No linesmen was very strange. No scoreboard was a real pain too. Didn't see it at any of the hurling games." I remember now - issue with St. Patrick's Park these days is that they can't have "real" double-headers in the traditional sense, due to residents' complaints about traffic etc. when people were leaving after the first match just as others were coming in for the second.
So what happens now is that there's a lengthy gap between matches there, so that just about everybody is gone from the first before anyone at all starts arriving for the second. And they're treated as two single-headers, even though they're both on in the same venue on the same date.
But I'm still baffled by lack of linesmen, and why the scoreboard was only in operation for one of the matches!
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 28/08/2023 12:47:43
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Replying To Viking66: "What would be wrong with 4 groups of 4?" That's a whole other discussion that I think we've had here before! :)
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 28/08/2023 12:48:48
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Replying To tearintom: "To be fair this isnt on the county board. But honestly our championship structure is an example of what not to do in terms of player burnout etc.
And tbh im not sure in many clubs how many players actually have a say, from my experience these decisions get made by committees and whoever is on it, evidenced this year by players from certain clubs questioning things their own club pushed in the first place!!
We are in a completely different world now since 2019 and are still trying to run the same championship structure within a timescale that doesnt actually work.
I think we need as a county to have a complete review of our championship structures led by the county board and what can work, what are the options etc before we decide what we do going forward. Clubs are just myopic voting simply whats works best for them, that doesnt necessarily lead to whats best overall." Nail on the head in several ways.
I can't say for sure that most or all clubs consult their players on such things, but I do know that they're supposed to, and that we definitely do in my club - Player Rep on the committee consults other players on things like two groups of six or any alternative being proposed, and on the split season (hurling first) thing, and then the club votes at County Board according to what the Player Rep says.
On your other idea - Coiste Bainistí and/or CCCC could do all the reviews they like and put forward strong arguments for a different system, but for as long as clubs have a vote on it, they're likely to continue to go for the current system. And if you tried to take that vote away from them, there'd be uproar altogether, because as it stands, it's one of the most important functions that they have.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2615 - 28/08/2023 12:55:33
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Replying To Pikeman96: "That's a whole other discussion that I think we've had here before! :)" We have but it would solve the problem we are facing now; )
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 28/08/2023 13:23:11
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I remember now - issue with St. Patrick's Park these days is that they can't have "real" double-headers in the traditional sense, due to residents' complaints about traffic etc. when people were leaving after the first match just as others were coming in for the second.
So what happens now is that there's a lengthy gap between matches there, so that just about everybody is gone from the first before anyone at all starts arriving for the second. And they're treated as two single-headers, even though they're both on in the same venue on the same date.
But I'm still baffled by lack of linesmen, and why the scoreboard was only in operation for one of the matches!" At least the pitch had improved a little. It was terrible last year and earlier this year.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 28/08/2023 13:25:09
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Replying To Viking66: "What would be wrong with 4 groups of 4?" Looking at group results in Inter the last two years, you would have a few teams that might go up and get trimmings? Just opinion.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 28/08/2023 14:15:48
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