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Replying To TheFlaker: "Anecdotes? You want to revisit the Irish language in schools debate with me? I will give you facts and numbers. You will tell me again you heard from a friend of yours who is a teacher." You don't debate, you make personal remarks implying that I am making things up. As have others on population stats that they can find in two clicks of CSO + population projections. .
Teachers have told me that the growth in number of exemptions from Irish is directly due to growing numbers of immigrant children.
Common sense also would indicate that this is the case. Of course if you have evidence to the contrary please show rather than claim you have,
And another major issue is that Gaeltacht schools and now Gaelscoileanna are under huge pressure to teach English as a first language to migrant children. Which is contrary to their whole ethos and indeed in case of Gaeltacht contrary to their statutory purpose.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3085 - 04/11/2024 15:18:26
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Replying To tommyjohn: " Replying To Viking66: "[quote=updwell: "[quote=supersub15: "It's worth remembering that the world is at war and it appears to be gaining momentum, the ongoing war is directly responsible for migration, emigration and immigration, then of course we have the Economic migrant as well. The whipping up of hatred towards migrants and refugees is despicable and disgusting in this country. That statement is very unfair and unwarranted to suggest all Irish men and women here have whipped up a hatred towards migrants and refugees in this country.
There were housing issues, hospital waiting lists and social issues, ever before immigration was an issue here and young people leaving now is down to life style choices rather than being driven out by migrants.
Of course there were housing, hospital waiting lists, social issues etc, etc, but not on the same scale then, as compared to today, not by a long shot, the shortage of housing and hospital beds is unprecedented never before experienced or seen in this country, the hospital waiting lists and the shortage of beds can at times be immoral and unforgiveable but we take it on the chin do we not.
I only ask one question, at what stage of the current house building revolution will it slow down or stop, if it doesn't will our supporting services like, water, sewage, power supply's, schools, hospitals, security, green belts or play areas, appropriate infrastructure, and all the other stuff that goes with it be able to support the housing program.
For as long as this housing program and the influx of migrants continues I have no problem with that so long as both are metered and programmed fairly and our own natives are not to be seen losing out or taking an unnecessary hit, that's not much to ask for continued cooperation.
For what it's worth I do think Irish people will become a minority here." There certainly is Irish men and women whipping up hatred towards migrants, you can see it on social media every weekend false patriots waving tricolour outside refugee centres. The health system has been creaking here for the last 30 years so blaming a migrant because you can't get a GP appointment or your on a waiting list has a lot more to do with successive governments closing down regional hospitals and ED's. Just think about it a refugee must be in a pretty bad situation to come over here to sleep in a tent in Dublin and see this as an improvement in their circumstances. We all agree here that the housing situation is dire and here we have thousands of men not allowed to work who could be carpenters, block layers, plasterers, plumbers etc., why not give these people asylum straight away if they can prove on a trial basis that they can contribute in a positive way to Irish society by working in areas that we are clearly lacking people in."
1- returning Irish citizens
2- EU citizens
3- UK citizens
4- people here on work permits
5- people here on study visas
6- Ukrainians
Non European IPAS asylum seekers are only a minute percentage of our immigrants.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 04/11/2024 16:33:04
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Lots of money going to soccer clubs why didn't the GAA try and get funding for a modern stadium for smaller crowds ? Sligo rovers and bohs got 40 million
Kew (Galway) - Posts: 98 - 04/11/2024 20:07:24
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Replying To Kew: "Lots of money going to soccer clubs why didn't the GAA try and get funding for a modern stadium for smaller crowds ? Sligo rovers and bohs got 40 million" F9r a stadium located where exactly?
Gaa got plenty of the funding including projects in Wexford roscommon Clare kerry galway and dublin
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3669 - 05/11/2024 09:08:56
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Replying To KillingFields: "F9r a stadium located where exactly?
Gaa got plenty of the funding including projects in Wexford roscommon Clare kerry galway and dublin" Did Louth apply for anything for its proposed new Stadium?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1936 - 05/11/2024 09:57:22
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "You don't debate, you make personal remarks implying that I am making things up. As have others on population stats that they can find in two clicks of CSO + population projections. .
Teachers have told me that the growth in number of exemptions from Irish is directly due to growing numbers of immigrant children.
Common sense also would indicate that this is the case. Of course if you have evidence to the contrary please show rather than claim you have,
And another major issue is that Gaeltacht schools and now Gaelscoileanna are under huge pressure to teach English as a first language to migrant children. Which is contrary to their whole ethos and indeed in case of Gaeltacht contrary to their statutory purpose." The number of Irish born and raised students dropping out of Irish in first year and second year is growing year on year. That's a totally separate thing to immigrant students not taking part in Irish.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8133 - 05/11/2024 11:08:34
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Replying To Breffni40: "Are you presenting this scenario as a positive?" Which scenario? I've mentioned 3. .
1. Women having the opportunity to pursue a career - yes, a positive
2. Average income being higher than average house prices - yes, a positive
3. An economic downturn caused by removing the potential for upward mobility (i.e. drive out FDI) - a negative
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5170 - 05/11/2024 11:19:42
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Replying To TheFlaker: "The number of Irish born and raised students dropping out of Irish in first year and second year is growing year on year. That's a totally separate thing to immigrant students not taking part in Irish." Careful now. Barney will win this argument with his stats trumping your anecdotes.
Or as he calls it himself "teachers have told me".
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5170 - 05/11/2024 11:21:12
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To tommyjohn: "[quote=Viking66: "[quote=updwell: "[quote=supersub15: "It's worth remembering that the world is at war and it appears to be gaining momentum, the ongoing war is directly responsible for migration, emigration and immigration, then of course we have the Economic migrant as well. The whipping up of hatred towards migrants and refugees is despicable and disgusting in this country. That statement is very unfair and unwarranted to suggest all Irish men and women here have whipped up a hatred towards migrants and refugees in this country.
There were housing issues, hospital waiting lists and social issues, ever before immigration was an issue here and young people leaving now is down to life style choices rather than being driven out by migrants.
Of course there were housing, hospital waiting lists, social issues etc, etc, but not on the same scale then, as compared to today, not by a long shot, the shortage of housing and hospital beds is unprecedented never before experienced or seen in this country, the hospital waiting lists and the shortage of beds can at times be immoral and unforgiveable but we take it on the chin do we not.
I only ask one question, at what stage of the current house building revolution will it slow down or stop, if it doesn't will our supporting services like, water, sewage, power supply's, schools, hospitals, security, green belts or play areas, appropriate infrastructure, and all the other stuff that goes with it be able to support the housing program.
For as long as this housing program and the influx of migrants continues I have no problem with that so long as both are metered and programmed fairly and our own natives are not to be seen losing out or taking an unnecessary hit, that's not much to ask for continued cooperation.
For what it's worth I do think Irish people will become a minority here." There certainly is Irish men and women whipping up hatred towards migrants, you can see it on social media every weekend false patriots waving tricolour outside refugee centres. The health system has been creaking here for the last 30 years so blaming a migrant because you can't get a GP appointment or your on a waiting list has a lot more to do with successive governments closing down regional hospitals and ED's. Just think about it a refugee must be in a pretty bad situation to come over here to sleep in a tent in Dublin and see this as an improvement in their circumstances. We all agree here that the housing situation is dire and here we have thousands of men not allowed to work who could be carpenters, block layers, plasterers, plumbers etc., why not give these people asylum straight away if they can prove on a trial basis that they can contribute in a positive way to Irish society by working in areas that we are clearly lacking people in."
1- returning Irish citizens
2- EU citizens
3- UK citizens
4- people here on work permits
5- people here on study visas
6- Ukrainians
Non European IPAS asylum seekers are only a minute percentage of our immigrants."]The arguments put forward in defense of our rapidly increasing population and the accommodation needed to house them won't be found by waving a magic wand, blaming successive governments is a soft option, percentages is more shadow boxing than throwing out suggestions of real fixes.
Our population is growing faster than can be humanly dealt with to satisfy those in need and the pressure groups.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3038 - 05/11/2024 11:33:44
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Replying To cavanman47: "Which scenario? I've mentioned 3. .
1. Women having the opportunity to pursue a career - yes, a positive
2. Average income being higher than average house prices - yes, a positive
3. An economic downturn caused by removing the potential for upward mobility (i.e. drive out FDI) - a negative" You've lost me sorry, I know we have wildly opposing views on this but are you saying house prices are good value and despite every indicator, we are not in a housing crisis? I'm very confused
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12188 - 05/11/2024 11:48:13
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Replying To TheFlaker: "The number of Irish born and raised students dropping out of Irish in first year and second year is growing year on year. That's a totally separate thing to immigrant students not taking part in Irish." Is this meant to be a serious response?
Where's all the statistics you promised.
How many are in each category?
If that is too complex for you, then try this little thought experiment:
Why would immigrant children NOT avail of an exemption from a language which is entirely foreign to them and which few if any would regard as a subject to get exam points in?
There is of course a huge and growing ignorance of and avoidance of our own culture including the language and sports and music. If you were in the least familiar with Dublin communities and schools in heavily immigrant and in some case majority areas you would realise that there is no interest on their part in these things. Same applies I am certain in other parts of the country. Any African who speaks Irish or plays GAA has probably been on TV at some stage.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3085 - 05/11/2024 13:58:24
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Replying To Breffni40: "You've lost me sorry, I know we have wildly opposing views on this but are you saying house prices are good value and despite every indicator, we are not in a housing crisis? I'm very confused" No, I'm not saying they're good value.
I'm saying the very reason high prices can be and are being demanded is because we are a hugely prosperous country and the demand is there. (And before anyone mentions vulture funds - it's not culture funds who bit the second hand 1 bed cottage in Ranelagh for 650k).
That wouldn't be the case if we didn't have the prospect of upward mobility. On a scale our parents generation didn't have. (Which is what my original post you questioned was in reply to)
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5170 - 05/11/2024 14:04:17
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Is this meant to be a serious response?
Where's all the statistics you promised.
How many are in each category?
If that is too complex for you, then try this little thought experiment:
Why would immigrant children NOT avail of an exemption from a language which is entirely foreign to them and which few if any would regard as a subject to get exam points in?
There is of course a huge and growing ignorance of and avoidance of our own culture including the language and sports and music. If you were in the least familiar with Dublin communities and schools in heavily immigrant and in some case majority areas you would realise that there is no interest on their part in these things. Same applies I am certain in other parts of the country. Any African who speaks Irish or plays GAA has probably been on TV at some stage." That last line, Good grief.
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12188 - 05/11/2024 14:25:21
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Is this meant to be a serious response?
Where's all the statistics you promised.
How many are in each category?
If that is too complex for you, then try this little thought experiment:
Why would immigrant children NOT avail of an exemption from a language which is entirely foreign to them and which few if any would regard as a subject to get exam points in?
There is of course a huge and growing ignorance of and avoidance of our own culture including the language and sports and music. If you were in the least familiar with Dublin communities and schools in heavily immigrant and in some case majority areas you would realise that there is no interest on their part in these things. Same applies I am certain in other parts of the country. Any African who speaks Irish or plays GAA has probably been on TV at some stage." Your last line shows what you are. An absolute eejit.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8133 - 05/11/2024 14:51:22
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Seriously Barney, envy, bitterness and hatred are a choice. You don't have to be this angry and confused.
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12188 - 05/11/2024 15:06:39
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Is this meant to be a serious response?
Where's all the statistics you promised.
How many are in each category?
If that is too complex for you, then try this little thought experiment:
Why would immigrant children NOT avail of an exemption from a language which is entirely foreign to them and which few if any would regard as a subject to get exam points in?
There is of course a huge and growing ignorance of and avoidance of our own culture including the language and sports and music. If you were in the least familiar with Dublin communities and schools in heavily immigrant and in some case majority areas you would realise that there is no interest on their part in these things. Same applies I am certain in other parts of the country. Any African who speaks Irish or plays GAA has probably been on TV at some stage." What are the CSO regards Africans who speak Irish play GAA and tv appearances made.
Barney rubble was further along evolution.
jm25 (Galway) - Posts: 1281 - 05/11/2024 15:37:12
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Replying To cavanman47: "No, I'm not saying they're good value.
I'm saying the very reason high prices can be and are being demanded is because we are a hugely prosperous country and the demand is there. (And before anyone mentions vulture funds - it's not culture funds who bit the second hand 1 bed cottage in Ranelagh for 650k).
That wouldn't be the case if we didn't have the prospect of upward mobility. On a scale our parents generation didn't have. (Which is what my original post you questioned was in reply to)" How do you reckon our parents didn't have upward social mobility?
They went from families of 10-12 people in two up two down homes built from 1930s to 1950s then average family size of 4/5 in a 3 bed house. I double that drastic of a change has been seen anywhere else in the world in that timeframe.
They were really the first generation to have disposable income
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3116 - 05/11/2024 16:10:53
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Replying To Doylerwex: "How do you reckon our parents didn't have upward social mobility?
They went from families of 10-12 people in two up two down homes built from 1930s to 1950s then average family size of 4/5 in a 3 bed house. I double that drastic of a change has been seen anywhere else in the world in that timeframe.
They were really the first generation to have disposable income" Oh they did, absolutely.
But going back to my previous question about how hard they worked for it. .
If someone our age is working as hard as our parents did (and I literally know of zero people who are) then they are doing very very well for themselves.
I enjoy a considerably more comfortable life than my parents did and I don't work nearly as hard as they did (Yet, I would say I've worked harder than anyone my age I know from same place, school, etc.)
The ceiling of what can be achieved in this country is immeasurable higher now than it was at any point in the last century.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5170 - 05/11/2024 17:32:54
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Replying To cavanman47: "No, I'm not saying they're good value.
I'm saying the very reason high prices can be and are being demanded is because we are a hugely prosperous country and the demand is there. (And before anyone mentions vulture funds - it's not culture funds who bit the second hand 1 bed cottage in Ranelagh for 650k).
That wouldn't be the case if we didn't have the prospect of upward mobility. On a scale our parents generation didn't have. (Which is what my original post you questioned was in reply to)" I guarantee you ..your hugely prosperous country won't be long grinding to a halt….and it will come quicker than you might think….!!!!
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3001 - 05/11/2024 19:09:31
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Replying To cavanman47: "Which scenario? I've mentioned 3. .
1. Women having the opportunity to pursue a career - yes, a positive
2. Average income being higher than average house prices - yes, a positive
3. An economic downturn caused by removing the potential for upward mobility (i.e. drive out FDI) - a negative" Median Income is way below average house prices.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13721 - 05/11/2024 20:27:01
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