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Replying To Loughduff Lad: " Replying To GaryMc82: "This current Casement project the biggest White Elephant in the history of the GAA (Projected to run over £240stg / €280 million), more than double the price of Pairc Ui Chaoimh (€96m) with 10,000 less capacity (Pairc Ui Chaoimh - 45000 capacity, New Casement = 34578, Clones = 36000).
Project Justification
- Nationalists in West Belfast get a GAA Stadium to rival Unionist Sport Stadiums in East Belfast.
- Sinn Fein and SDLP get to claim they made it happen, when in reality the original 2023 Rugby World Cup triggered the British Government to explore it as an investment opportunity.
- Belfast has shopping, airports and hotels - things fans from Donegal, Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Cavan, Armagh, Fermanagh etc all really need on Ulster Championship match days.
- Can hold concerts in Belfast for various Pop, Hip Hop, Country, Rock etc events.
- British Government are paying money towards it.
- Antrim and Ulster GAA gets a top class stadium to rival other Provinces.
NOTE: Interestingly of all the justifications put forward over the last 10 years or more, needs of GAA fans who will most regularly be using it have been ignored, not even part of the considerations.
Issues
- They build in a cramped site in West Belfast with insufficient parking to cater for crowds in excess of 30,000.
- Stadium capacity is limited to a lower capacity than Clones, as there is no room for a bigger Stadium on this site.
- Many Fans will have to use Park & Ride facilities from 10+ miles outside Belfast for big games.
- It doesn't solve the 1.5 - 2 hour journey faced by many fans to Clones, many fans in Donegal, Fermanagh and Cavan will still face this or 1.5 hour minimum.
If this Stadium is likely to cost >£200 million and raising that money is a problem, did anybody consider revisiting the design and see what kind of stadium could be built for £110 million? How much did the main stand in Armagh's Athletic ground cost? Imagine multiplying that style of stand around the 4 sides of Casement?
I suspect a top class Antrim GAA stadium could be built on the Casement Park site for £100 million, which is miles better than anything we currently have in Ulster at present, simply cut out all of the nonsense." You're missing the main point. The cost has increased due to need for a UEFA standard stadium. Of course a basic enough 25k stadium could be built easily for far less. But this needs over 30k and certain facilities for that grade of a stadium to hold events of that UEFA level. So funding issue should indeed be looked at by the govt, who are the ones who applied for the Euros and who want this. That's the crux of the matter. Remove this and the cost drops - but then there is no venue. the place will literally pay for itself in no time with the Euros and otehr events Anf come on, the location maybe is not the best, but it is far far better than Clones. there's a motorway nearby, and parking will be fine in a city. Sure look how Croker absorbs an 83k crowd. Casement will be fine, and either way support infrastructure can be upgraded if needed"
Square_B (Leitrim) - Posts: 1024 - 22/02/2024 12:39:16
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: " Replying To GaryMc82: "This current Casement project the biggest White Elephant in the history of the GAA (Projected to run over £240stg / €280 million), more than double the price of Pairc Ui Chaoimh (€96m) with 10,000 less capacity (Pairc Ui Chaoimh - 45000 capacity, New Casement = 34578, Clones = 36000).
Project Justification
- Nationalists in West Belfast get a GAA Stadium to rival Unionist Sport Stadiums in East Belfast.
- Sinn Fein and SDLP get to claim they made it happen, when in reality the original 2023 Rugby World Cup triggered the British Government to explore it as an investment opportunity.
- Belfast has shopping, airports and hotels - things fans from Donegal, Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Cavan, Armagh, Fermanagh etc all really need on Ulster Championship match days.
- Can hold concerts in Belfast for various Pop, Hip Hop, Country, Rock etc events.
- British Government are paying money towards it.
- Antrim and Ulster GAA gets a top class stadium to rival other Provinces.
NOTE: Interestingly of all the justifications put forward over the last 10 years or more, needs of GAA fans who will most regularly be using it have been ignored, not even part of the considerations.
Issues
- They build in a cramped site in West Belfast with insufficient parking to cater for crowds in excess of 30,000.
- Stadium capacity is limited to a lower capacity than Clones, as there is no room for a bigger Stadium on this site.
- Many Fans will have to use Park & Ride facilities from 10+ miles outside Belfast for big games.
- It doesn't solve the 1.5 - 2 hour journey faced by many fans to Clones, many fans in Donegal, Fermanagh and Cavan will still face this or 1.5 hour minimum.
If this Stadium is likely to cost >£200 million and raising that money is a problem, did anybody consider revisiting the design and see what kind of stadium could be built for £110 million? How much did the main stand in Armagh's Athletic ground cost? Imagine multiplying that style of stand around the 4 sides of Casement?
I suspect a top class Antrim GAA stadium could be built on the Casement Park site for £100 million, which is miles better than anything we currently have in Ulster at present, simply cut out all of the nonsense." Isn't Clones limited to 28k these days?"
Most Ulster Gaels don't mind having to go to Clones for a big match, but the same numbers wouldn't go there for a concert. Therein lies the problem.
SouthOfTheGap (Donegal) - Posts: 704 - 22/02/2024 12:46:04
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Replying To GaryMc82: "Isn't Clones limited to 28k these days?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1265 - 22/02/2024 11:20:47
No, I think Clones is 36,000 max capacity, but in recent years they usually limit that to 33-34,000 for safety approval." Limited to 29k on safety, and without major upgrades or work to fix it, it will never get above that 29k. In fact it may even drop if it continues to not be looked after. Place is a dump. I love days there, but it's falling apart
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2450 - 22/02/2024 12:59:06
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Replying To Lockjaw: "I plucked AECOM for a Google search to be honest. But I agree, they wouldn't be doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they'd need to make a buck as well. My main point is that we frequently mismanage large infra projects ourselves. The Germans have a well earned reputation when it comes to engineering which is what I was trying to convey." Any large project that is mismanaged has these large Engineering firms already involved. there's only a certain few of them. And they all do it and make profit of that. They're not the white knights here.
People have an understanding of infrastructure projects here and what it takes to get them over the line. It just costs more here for multiple reasons and we just have to accept that
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2450 - 22/02/2024 13:01:07
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Replying To WanPintWin: "We know all that, but you can't undo the past , whether it happened 100 or 2,000 years ago. The people are there.
A solution is needed now, and references to wrongs/rights from a century ago or more aren't going to help in that regard.
I think most rational people agree that a two-state solution is the only answer, but achieving that is incredibly difficult.
The most important thing is an end to the bloodshed. Any ceasefire is always fragile though, as there are people there who have it in their interest for the conflict to continue." A two state solution was a potential answer but is barely viable now because the colonisation didn't stop 100 years ago it has continued right up to today with Palestinians still being removed from their land and their little territory still being actively eroded. It can't really be compared with the Troubles and subsequent peace process as the British had finished their takeover long before that. The Palestinian scenario is much closer to where Ireland was in the 1500s and 1600s with active confiscation and plantation happening. This is very raw as people have been dispossed in living memory in Palestine. You can't undo the past but you can change the present and even the recent past and for there to be some form of a positive outcome Israel needs to immediately halt its colonisation and withdraw its military and plantations from the occupied territories. It is in the interest of ordinary Israelis as well to make peace with their neighbours. Hopefully peace is sorted quicker than it did here...400 years after the plantation of Ulster.
MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 999 - 22/02/2024 13:01:29
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I seem Damien Duff questioning Casement park funding , not the first time the same man coming up with anti gaa comments.
OpenStand (Limerick) - Posts: 717 - 22/02/2024 13:17:06
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Any large project that is mismanaged has these large Engineering firms already involved. there's only a certain few of them. And they all do it and make profit of that. They're not the white knights here.
People have an understanding of infrastructure projects here and what it takes to get them over the line. It just costs more here for multiple reasons and we just have to accept that" Really? Even in the case of something like the Children's Hospital? Look I'm not doubting what you're saying here. I've been involved in some major IT infra projects over the years and I know that overspend can and will occur. But I'm sorry, when you see the overspend involved in the Children's Hospital, then we can't just accept it. Questions need to be asked why, otherwise what's to stop it happening again and again?
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 22/02/2024 13:27:58
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Replying To MachaireConnacht: "A two state solution was a potential answer but is barely viable now because the colonisation didn't stop 100 years ago it has continued right up to today with Palestinians still being removed from their land and their little territory still being actively eroded. It can't really be compared with the Troubles and subsequent peace process as the British had finished their takeover long before that. The Palestinian scenario is much closer to where Ireland was in the 1500s and 1600s with active confiscation and plantation happening. This is very raw as people have been dispossed in living memory in Palestine. You can't undo the past but you can change the present and even the recent past and for there to be some form of a positive outcome Israel needs to immediately halt its colonisation and withdraw its military and plantations from the occupied territories. It is in the interest of ordinary Israelis as well to make peace with their neighbours. Hopefully peace is sorted quicker than it did here...400 years after the plantation of Ulster." One direct comparison between the North and Israel is they are both artificially created states?? The oppression of the Palestinian people is a total disgrace and highlights the moral bankruptcy of the USA/UK and also the EU. The Irish Government have been very weak on this issue. They were a lot faster to move against Russia for their atrocious actions in Ukraine. It seems American investment and not upsetting Joe Biden is more important than standing against the horrors Israel is inflicting on the Palestinian people.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1673 - 22/02/2024 13:36:05
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Replying To GalloonBaffoon: "Myself and macca999 would be representative of the voice of Fermanagh and our county like Donegal believe that the location is wrong and the site at the former Maze Prison would have been a much superior setting with loads of land to built a bigger capacity stadium with plenty of facilities and carparking being no issue. We think it's a big mistake and will end up a white elephant a bit like our own county's so called centre of excellence stuck up on a mountain in the back of no where!" Judging by Google it takes someone an hour and a half to go from Enniskillen to Belfast. It takes the same time from Magherafelt to Clones and even longer if you are from north county Derry.
PattyONeill (Derry) - Posts: 246 - 22/02/2024 13:47:15
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Hopefully the British Government do allocate funding to Casement Park but this is one the worst Tory governments and they can not be trusted. Its hard to understand why the GAA who make significant amounts of money every year and could easily afford to give more won't commit extra cash to ensure Casement Park goes ahead especially when work has to start very soon. With concerts etc they would get their money back and a lot more.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1673 - 22/02/2024 13:57:51
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Replying To Ulsterman: "It's unfortunate that some real partitionist views are now coming out south of the border on the Irish government part funding the rebuilding Casement. Damien Duff said the money "should have been spent in Ireland". In the name of sweet....is this the same Damien Duff who took millions of quid in wages across the water? Partitionism how are ye Damien? The DUP will love you for that no doubt." You're only noticing that now? I've known what southerners were like for years.
PattyONeill (Derry) - Posts: 246 - 22/02/2024 14:15:48
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Replying To Young_gael: "Wouldnt it be lovely if the people of the North got a slip in their door in the morning - they could decide to move across the "border" permanently, or else move to the "mainland" permanently, whatever persuasion they were of, of course. All of this could happen in a day to save our colective headache, then the six counties could be lanced off the island, and towed by the biggest ships in the world to the north of Greenland somewhere and left there for the remainder of eternity to freeze over, and never, ever be discussed again.
I am so, so, so tired of the place. To our fellow GAA fans from there, I just dont know how you put up with it. I think you all secretly love the nonsense. It is not to be seen in any other modern European country." No I block it out mostly, I don't listen to radio shows like Nolan and I avoid watching the local news. I wasn't even aware that there wasn't a government the past while until I heard that it started up again.
PattyONeill (Derry) - Posts: 246 - 22/02/2024 14:21:23
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Replying To PattyONeill: "You're only noticing that now? I've known what southerners were like for years." Polls show that there is consistently a substantial majority for a United Ireland in the Republic. Yes there are partitionist elements but that is not reflective of the population of the Republic who are in the main supportive of a United Ireland. Yet in the North there are many from a Nationalist background who have no sense of Irishness and would cast a vote in a border poll for colonialism and imperialism. There is no majority in the North for a United Ireland primarily because of this cohort of people. This was shown in the most recent census.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1673 - 22/02/2024 14:33:22
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Replying To Lockjaw: "Really? Even in the case of something like the Children's Hospital? Look I'm not doubting what you're saying here. I've been involved in some major IT infra projects over the years and I know that overspend can and will occur. But I'm sorry, when you see the overspend involved in the Children's Hospital, then we can't just accept it. Questions need to be asked why, otherwise what's to stop it happening again and again?" I'm not defending the overspend on the Children's hospital, I'm just saying I understand the way things works here. I work in an unrelated department in one of those style of firms, and I see what goes on. On both sides. We have some much red tape here. Some of it very much justified. We have to sometimes think of far more building here than if we did in other countries for example (I don't like when we are compared to the Burj al Khalifa which was built with slave labour). We have a high H&S standard, we pay high wages to trades, have high material and waste disposal cost, we have a bloated planning process than any bad actor can disrupt, and we also have to deal with govt officials who have to toe a certain line but really have actually no idea what they are doing in certain areas of expertise. It all adds in to projects costing more than anticipated a lot of the time. And you cannot quantify it as you don't know which one or more issues will be the problem on that particular project. So no, I don't like the overspend. but when I see what it's like to do business here, I understand it for what it is and it unfortunately part of our process here and will happen again and again.
We're also not just setting fire to a pile of money. Yes it's overspend, but vast bulk goes back into the economy anyway so it's bit of a weird one for people to go mental over without the full picture. We're not a broke country, and in years to come we'll be glad we did build things even if they over ran. The same way the Metro should have been built 20 years ago, and even today at an overspend is better than in 20 years time at an even bigger overspend. It's why we need to and should build everything we can when we have the money as it will always be cheaper to today
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2450 - 22/02/2024 15:27:35
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Replying To PattyONeill: "You're only noticing that now? I've known what southerners were like for years." A bit ironic saying Partitionists and Southerners in the one sentence.
Is Inishowen in the "South"(sic)
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 22/02/2024 15:34:38
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Replying To OpenStand: "I seem Damien Duff questioning Casement park funding , not the first time the same man coming up with anti gaa comments." Great to see the soccer crew annoyed when the GAA get funding, they would obviously get similar funding if they could be trusted with money.
Looking at the FAI soccer chief executive explaining funds that have gone missing in the FAI today, some things will never change in that organisation.
Monaghansclown (Monaghan) - Posts: 187 - 22/02/2024 16:37:53
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "I'm not defending the overspend on the Children's hospital, I'm just saying I understand the way things works here. I work in an unrelated department in one of those style of firms, and I see what goes on. On both sides. We have some much red tape here. Some of it very much justified. We have to sometimes think of far more building here than if we did in other countries for example (I don't like when we are compared to the Burj al Khalifa which was built with slave labour). We have a high H&S standard, we pay high wages to trades, have high material and waste disposal cost, we have a bloated planning process than any bad actor can disrupt, and we also have to deal with govt officials who have to toe a certain line but really have actually no idea what they are doing in certain areas of expertise. It all adds in to projects costing more than anticipated a lot of the time. And you cannot quantify it as you don't know which one or more issues will be the problem on that particular project. So no, I don't like the overspend. but when I see what it's like to do business here, I understand it for what it is and it unfortunately part of our process here and will happen again and again.
We're also not just setting fire to a pile of money. Yes it's overspend, but vast bulk goes back into the economy anyway so it's bit of a weird one for people to go mental over without the full picture. We're not a broke country, and in years to come we'll be glad we did build things even if they over ran. The same way the Metro should have been built 20 years ago, and even today at an overspend is better than in 20 years time at an even bigger overspend. It's why we need to and should build everything we can when we have the money as it will always be cheaper to today" A good well explained post.
I agree, we should be building when we can to better the country and obviously these things aren't easy. Look at any Dermot Bannon episode for all the evidence you need at how quickly costs can go up :P
A seperate issue I know, but the MICA crisis in Donegal and elsewhere is still not being fully addressed. Funny how they're keen to rein costs in on that and not so much elsewhere.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 22/02/2024 17:07:19
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Replying To GaryMc82: "This current Casement project the biggest White Elephant in the history of the GAA (Projected to run over £240stg / €280 million), more than double the price of Pairc Ui Chaoimh (€96m) with 10,000 less capacity (Pairc Ui Chaoimh - 45000 capacity, New Casement = 34578, Clones = 36000).
Project Justification
- Nationalists in West Belfast get a GAA Stadium to rival Unionist Sport Stadiums in East Belfast.
- Sinn Fein and SDLP get to claim they made it happen, when in reality the original 2023 Rugby World Cup triggered the British Government to explore it as an investment opportunity.
- Belfast has shopping, airports and hotels - things fans from Donegal, Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Cavan, Armagh, Fermanagh etc all really need on Ulster Championship match days.
- Can hold concerts in Belfast for various Pop, Hip Hop, Country, Rock etc events.
- British Government are paying money towards it.
- Antrim and Ulster GAA gets a top class stadium to rival other Provinces.
NOTE: Interestingly of all the justifications put forward over the last 10 years or more, needs of GAA fans who will most regularly be using it have been ignored, not even part of the considerations.
Issues
- They build in a cramped site in West Belfast with insufficient parking to cater for crowds in excess of 30,000.
- Stadium capacity is limited to a lower capacity than Clones, as there is no room for a bigger Stadium on this site.
- Many Fans will have to use Park & Ride facilities from 10+ miles outside Belfast for big games.
- It doesn't solve the 1.5 - 2 hour journey faced by many fans to Clones, many fans in Donegal, Fermanagh and Cavan will still face this or 1.5 hour minimum.
If this Stadium is likely to cost >£200 million and raising that money is a problem, did anybody consider revisiting the design and see what kind of stadium could be built for £110 million? How much did the main stand in Armagh's Athletic ground cost? Imagine multiplying that style of stand around the 4 sides of Casement?
I suspect a top class Antrim GAA stadium could be built on the Casement Park site for £100 million, which is miles better than anything we currently have in Ulster at present, simply cut out all of the nonsense." Yes Gary, you have cleverly and realistically set out the logical reasons that this Casement Park Project will be the most embarrassing WHITE ELEPHANT ever! Myself and macca999, both whom believe that we are the representative voice of Fermanagh, have been highlighting in our earlier contributions on this thread. I don't want to repeat your argument, but I'll add one point, why is it that GAA HQ isn't investing much more into the project? Their small token input, considering the hugely inflated cost of the project, speaks volumes as they know fine well it's that it's doomed, falling short in what a proper provincial stadium should be. Meanwhile, Antrim/Belfast GAA get an grand county football stadium!
GalloonBaffoon (Fermanagh) - Posts: 120 - 22/02/2024 18:19:35
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Replying To OpenStand: "I seem Damien Duff questioning Casement park funding , not the first time the same man coming up with anti gaa comments." Is that the same Damian Duff who manages at team in the "best" league in the world. Says a lot about his claims.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2150 - 22/02/2024 20:50:37
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Replying To Saynothing: "Is that the same Damian Duff who manages at team in the "best" league in the world. Says a lot about his claims." Its not the GAA he's having a go at, its the irish government. And he's right too.
Live_Wire (Monaghan) - Posts: 40 - 22/02/2024 22:54:00
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