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Of the leading contenders for the All Ireland, most are a product of sustained U20/21 success.
Dublin won 12 of 18 U20 Leinsters between 2002 and 2020 - resulting in 19 of 20 Leinster Senior titles (and 9 of 14 All Irelands)
Kerry's Munster U21 wins (1991, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2002) produced 6 senior all irelands (1997, 2000, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2009) and their current run (6 from 8 since 2017) has only started producing all Irelands (1 and counting)
Tyrone's All Irelands were built of sustained U21/20 provincial success and having won 4 of 6 since 2019 - they are coming again)
The Galway current team is built off 5no U20/21 prov titles between 2011 and 2020,
Mayos team from 2011-2021 was built of 7 Prov U20 titles between 2001 and 2009.
Corks 2010 all ireland was a product of 6 Prov U20 titles between (2001 and 2009)
Only Cavan (4 in a row U21 Ulster's from 2011 to 2014) and Cork (7 from 10 between 2011 and 2021) have failed to turn sustained U20 success into a top quality senior intercounty team.
Donegal and Armagh are outliers, having won senior All Irelands in the past 25 years without any sustained underage success.
The question for any intercounty team outside Div 1, would you not be better cutting costs on the senior team for 3-8 years and focus on trying to produce a consistent quality U20 team who win provincial championships before switching funds to then try and win a senior All ireland from that sustained U20 success.
Its worked for Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone and Cork (to a lessor extent) and got Down, Mayo and Galway to a few all Ireland finals, it is surely the only recipe for success unless you have a generational unifying figurehead (Jim McGuinness/Kieran McGeeney/Joe Kiernan/John O Mahony/Brian McEniff/Sean Boylan/Eamon Coleman/Mick O Dwyer).
Its likely easier to focus on the underage, as the GAA football messiahs are not found as frequently as they once were.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1304 - 21/04/2025 17:30:24
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Of the leading contenders for the All Ireland, most are a product of sustained U20/21 success.
Dublin won 12 of 18 U20 Leinsters between 2002 and 2020 - resulting in 19 of 20 Leinster Senior titles (and 9 of 14 All Irelands)
Kerry's Munster U21 wins (1991, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2002) produced 6 senior all irelands (1997, 2000, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2009) and their current run (6 from 8 since 2017) has only started producing all Irelands (1 and counting)
Tyrone's All Irelands were built of sustained U21/20 provincial success and having won 4 of 6 since 2019 - they are coming again)
The Galway current team is built off 5no U20/21 prov titles between 2011 and 2020,
Mayos team from 2011-2021 was built of 7 Prov U20 titles between 2001 and 2009.
Corks 2010 all ireland was a product of 6 Prov U20 titles between (2001 and 2009)
Only Cavan (4 in a row U21 Ulster's from 2011 to 2014) and Cork (7 from 10 between 2011 and 2021) have failed to turn sustained U20 success into a top quality senior intercounty team.
Donegal and Armagh are outliers, having won senior All Irelands in the past 25 years without any sustained underage success.
The question for any intercounty team outside Div 1, would you not be better cutting costs on the senior team for 3-8 years and focus on trying to produce a consistent quality U20 team who win provincial championships before switching funds to then try and win a senior All ireland from that sustained U20 success.
Its worked for Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone and Cork (to a lessor extent) and got Down, Mayo and Galway to a few all Ireland finals, it is surely the only recipe for success unless you have a generational unifying figurehead (Jim McGuinness/Kieran McGeeney/Joe Kiernan/John O Mahony/Brian McEniff/Sean Boylan/Eamon Coleman/Mick O Dwyer).
Its likely easier to focus on the underage, as the GAA football messiahs are not found as frequently as they once were." Not sure the counties that had senior success following on u20 success pursued the model you suggest and I don't think it would work.
I don't think Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc sacrificed any focus on their senior team.
A planned reduction of focus on the senior set-up cannot be switched back on just like that.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 871 - 21/04/2025 18:28:50
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Likely All Ireland U20 Semi finals this year going by punters and bookies odds
Mayo v Kildare
Derry v Kerry
Derry to beat Mayo in the final
Be interesting to see how right they'll be.
Drax_the_destroyer (UK) - Posts: 382 - 21/04/2025 19:19:27
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Replying To sligo joe: "Not sure the counties that had senior success following on u20 success pursued the model you suggest and I don't think it would work.
I don't think Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc sacrificed any focus on their senior team.
A planned reduction of focus on the senior set-up cannot be switched back on just like that." I dont think those counties will switch off senior at this point.
However, the point is still valid - they started with fixing their underage and pushed on from there.
Its a blueprint for all aspiring counties who wish to be at the top table - sort out your underage teams and the rest should follow
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1304 - 22/04/2025 16:44:36
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Replying To Drax_the_destroyer: "Likely All Ireland U20 Semi finals this year going by punters and bookies odds
Mayo v Kildare
Derry v Kerry
Derry to beat Mayo in the final
Be interesting to see how right they'll be." Kildare already gone well beaten by Meath most certainly didn't live up to their expectations.
Drax_the_destroyer (UK) - Posts: 382 - 22/04/2025 21:31:40
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "I dont think those counties will switch off senior at this point.
However, the point is still valid - they started with fixing their underage and pushed on from there.
Its a blueprint for all aspiring counties who wish to be at the top table - sort out your underage teams and the rest should follow" Agree 100% that investing time, coaching and resources into underage is vital to future success, where I disagree is your assertion that this could be at the expense of cutting resources to senior structures.
I see no evidence that neglecting senior county teams so as to divert resources to underage has been successful or indeed undertaken.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 871 - 22/04/2025 21:58:06
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Replying To Drax_the_destroyer: "Kildare already gone well beaten by Meath most certainly didn't live up to their expectations." Louth beating Dublin in the other semi-final as well, is an interesting result. It will be 5 years since Dublin won an U20 Leinster title, which is almost unthinkable in the context of their general dominance in the province. They had won 9 of the last 12 Leinster U20/21 titles prior to that.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2277 - 22/04/2025 23:28:44
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Replying To sligo joe: "Agree 100% that investing time, coaching and resources into underage is vital to future success, where I disagree is your assertion that this could be at the expense of cutting resources to senior structures.
I see no evidence that neglecting senior county teams so as to divert resources to underage has been successful or indeed undertaken." There is no evidence of anyone diverting resources to U20 before senior, because no one does it by choice.
But if you look at Meath, Kildare, Down, Laois etc - they have dropped off completely at senior and would have been better spending their last 10 years focusing on U20's from 2006-2020 as spending money at Senior level got them no where.
Even for the likes of Sligo, Limerick, Tipperary, Fermanagh, Longford, Westmeath, Louth, Wicklow - building a sustained level of U20 success over the next 10 years will result in a higher standard of their Seniors come 2032 onwards.
If Roscommon, Monaghan, Mayo, Cork, Armagh and Donegal diverted resources from high paid senior management teams for 5 years and put that money into U20 level, they would develop a senior panel able to sustain a multi year challenge to Dublin/Kerry, rather than the odd final or win every now and then.
Spending money on high profile professional Senior Coaching teams, just stunts underage development as there is no money left to develop homegrown coaches and underage players.
The evidence of high spend on intercounty management teams being followed by a lull in underage performance is common everywhere, from every county where Mick O Dwyer coached, Galway post John O Mahony, to Mayo and Dublin now.
Counties who don't have a panel to win the All Ireland now, would be better off, focusing on youth development until they can get sustained U20 success and then switching emphasis to try to maximize the senior output of a series of winning U20 teams.
Embrace the ebb and flow of success, pumping money into a dead horse of a senior team guarantees long term poor performance.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1304 - 23/04/2025 10:00:32
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "There is no evidence of anyone diverting resources to U20 before senior, because no one does it by choice.
But if you look at Meath, Kildare, Down, Laois etc - they have dropped off completely at senior and would have been better spending their last 10 years focusing on U20's from 2006-2020 as spending money at Senior level got them no where.
Even for the likes of Sligo, Limerick, Tipperary, Fermanagh, Longford, Westmeath, Louth, Wicklow - building a sustained level of U20 success over the next 10 years will result in a higher standard of their Seniors come 2032 onwards.
If Roscommon, Monaghan, Mayo, Cork, Armagh and Donegal diverted resources from high paid senior management teams for 5 years and put that money into U20 level, they would develop a senior panel able to sustain a multi year challenge to Dublin/Kerry, rather than the odd final or win every now and then.
Spending money on high profile professional Senior Coaching teams, just stunts underage development as there is no money left to develop homegrown coaches and underage players.
The evidence of high spend on intercounty management teams being followed by a lull in underage performance is common everywhere, from every county where Mick O Dwyer coached, Galway post John O Mahony, to Mayo and Dublin now.
Counties who don't have a panel to win the All Ireland now, would be better off, focusing on youth development until they can get sustained U20 success and then switching emphasis to try to maximize the senior output of a series of winning U20 teams.
Embrace the ebb and flow of success, pumping money into a dead horse of a senior team guarantees long term poor performance." It's a bit of an assumption to suggest that spend was any higher on the Galway senior football team during John O'Mahony's era than after, as well as whether underage investment was impacted by this also.
There's almost an insinuation that Johno's success was due to high spend. There was no mention of anything of the sort at the time. We had a combination of a very talented group of players coming through together, combined with some senior leaders and a mercurial manager who knew how to get the best out of his players.
Your point about a lull in underage performance after he left doesn't stack up either. We won an All-Ireland U21 the year after Johno finished with the seniors and an All-Ireland minor two years later.
We also won an U21 the year after the second of Johno's All-Irelands. There's no evidence that underage was being neglected at the time.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2277 - 23/04/2025 11:09:22
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That's 2 years in a row Louth have beat Dublin at U-20. Can't be a bad thing
Getting over the line next week would be massive for Louth
As the manager said on the radio this morning the more and more our senior, minor and 20 teams keep getting to semi and finals, eventually one will get over the line and hopefully that will be the start of plenty of trophies as the work gone in underage is incredible and now with Gavin Delvin the main man overseeing everything it can only be a good thing
I will never forget 2010 and my now passed away grandad crying in Croke Park at the end. I really hope I can be in Croke Park with my young fella when we win a Leinster title at senior level even if it only happens once
DundalkGael (Louth) - Posts: 939 - 23/04/2025 11:09:47
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Replying To WanPintWin: "Louth beating Dublin in the other semi-final as well, is an interesting result. It will be 5 years since Dublin won an U20 Leinster title, which is almost unthinkable in the context of their general dominance in the province. They had won 9 of the last 12 Leinster U20/21 titles prior to that." This has been on the cards for a few years now.
The quality of Dublin underage football is average at best now.
I dont expect many underage Leinster titles coming in the near future either.
When the last few Dublin standout players hang up their boots in the next couple of years - I fully expect a few barren years ahead for the Senior team also.
You cannot make a race horse out of a mule - these senior players we have had were generational.
Us Dubs have been saying that for quite a while.
Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4126 - 23/04/2025 11:19:24
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Replying To DundalkGael: "That's 2 years in a row Louth have beat Dublin at U-20. Can't be a bad thing
Getting over the line next week would be massive for Louth
As the manager said on the radio this morning the more and more our senior, minor and 20 teams keep getting to semi and finals, eventually one will get over the line and hopefully that will be the start of plenty of trophies as the work gone in underage is incredible and now with Gavin Delvin the main man overseeing everything it can only be a good thing
I will never forget 2010 and my now passed away grandad crying in Croke Park at the end. I really hope I can be in Croke Park with my young fella when we win a Leinster title at senior level even if it only happens once" Good to see Louth rising in the football world.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2252 - 23/04/2025 11:21:27
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Replying To DundalkGael: "That's 2 years in a row Louth have beat Dublin at U-20. Can't be a bad thing
Getting over the line next week would be massive for Louth
As the manager said on the radio this morning the more and more our senior, minor and 20 teams keep getting to semi and finals, eventually one will get over the line and hopefully that will be the start of plenty of trophies as the work gone in underage is incredible and now with Gavin Delvin the main man overseeing everything it can only be a good thing
I will never forget 2010 and my now passed away grandad crying in Croke Park at the end. I really hope I can be in Croke Park with my young fella when we win a Leinster title at senior level even if it only happens once" The Meath u20's under O'Bric look very strong yet again.
I think Meath will, once more, be too strong for the Louth men in the Final next Wed in Parnell Park tbh.
Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4126 - 23/04/2025 11:28:42
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Replying To WanPintWin: "It's a bit of an assumption to suggest that spend was any higher on the Galway senior football team during John O'Mahony's era than after, as well as whether underage investment was impacted by this also.
There's almost an insinuation that Johno's success was due to high spend. There was no mention of anything of the sort at the time. We had a combination of a very talented group of players coming through together, combined with some senior leaders and a mercurial manager who knew how to get the best out of his players.
Your point about a lull in underage performance after he left doesn't stack up either. We won an All-Ireland U21 the year after Johno finished with the seniors and an All-Ireland minor two years later.
We also won an U21 the year after the second of Johno's All-Irelands. There's no evidence that underage was being neglected at the time." I'm sure you think John O Mahony was coaching Galway for the love of Galway and the likes of Michael Donnellan switched club allegiance to Salthill because he loved the beach.
That Galway team was built off U21 provincial wins in 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1998 - it was inevitable with a good manager. The period of success should have lased longer based on the success in 2000 and 2002.
Galway only won one U21 titles between 2003 and 2010 resulting in an inevitable decline up to 2013/14.
The facts speak for themselves.
Galway are the best example of building at U21/20 (while threading water at senior), developing a load of good U21/U20 players and then investing in the Senior team to make the most of it (current team is based on U21/20 wins in 2013, 2017, 2019, 2020)
2013 - L Silke, D Comer; S Walsh, I Burke, T Flynn
2017 - S Kelly, K Molloy, D McHugh, C McDaid, P Cooke , C Brennan; , M Daly, R Finnerty, C D'arcy
2019 - S Mulkerrin,
2020 - Conor Flaherty, Jonathan McGrath, Sean Fitzgerald, Jack Glynn; Cathal Sweeney; Matthew Tierney, Tomo Culhane
Now they have an expensive management team since 2020 to try to deliver and All Ireland.
Since 2021, they haven't won a provincial U20 so the senior team will go into decline for a while whenever this current team starts to fade in 2-3 years.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1304 - 23/04/2025 11:57:48
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "I'm sure you think John O Mahony was coaching Galway for the love of Galway and the likes of Michael Donnellan switched club allegiance to Salthill because he loved the beach.
That Galway team was built off U21 provincial wins in 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1998 - it was inevitable with a good manager. The period of success should have lased longer based on the success in 2000 and 2002.
Galway only won one U21 titles between 2003 and 2010 resulting in an inevitable decline up to 2013/14.
The facts speak for themselves.
Galway are the best example of building at U21/20 (while threading water at senior), developing a load of good U21/U20 players and then investing in the Senior team to make the most of it (current team is based on U21/20 wins in 2013, 2017, 2019, 2020)
2013 - L Silke, D Comer; S Walsh, I Burke, T Flynn
2017 - S Kelly, K Molloy, D McHugh, C McDaid, P Cooke , C Brennan; , M Daly, R Finnerty, C D'arcy
2019 - S Mulkerrin,
2020 - Conor Flaherty, Jonathan McGrath, Sean Fitzgerald, Jack Glynn; Cathal Sweeney; Matthew Tierney, Tomo Culhane
Now they have an expensive management team since 2020 to try to deliver and All Ireland.
Since 2021, they haven't won a provincial U20 so the senior team will go into decline for a while whenever this current team starts to fade in 2-3 years." No need for the snarky comments. We're talking about O'Mahony managing Galway, not Salthill. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
We won an All-Ireland senior in 2001 and followed with U21s in 2002 and 2005. Joyce, Donnellan etc were still in their mid-20s at that stage, and those underage teams had the likes of Michael, Meehan, Gary Sice, Joe Bergin, Kieran Fitzgerald and plenty other very talented players. There's nothing to suggest that underage was neglected while O'Mahony was in charge of Galway. If anything it's after this that the level dropped. We also won U21 All-Irelands in 2011 and 2013. 4 U21 All-Irelands in 12 years is a damn good record and suggests plenty of good players coming through over the course of a decade.
Our failures at senior level went far beyond a lack of talent coming through.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2277 - 23/04/2025 12:24:08
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Replying To Drax_the_destroyer: "Likely All Ireland U20 Semi finals this year going by punters and bookies odds
Mayo v Kildare
Derry v Kerry
Derry to beat Mayo in the final
Be interesting to see how right they'll be." Derry and Kildare didnt even make their provincial finals.
Not sure where you got your predictions from.....
Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4126 - 24/04/2025 09:01:38
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