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Replying To omahant: "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8411 - 13/01/2025 19:07:47
Generally, ok - BUT:
Lose an Ulster Final, draw 3rd seed Derry or Tyrone.
Be that Derry or Tyrone, draw Prov Final loser, Clare, or in other years, Sligo. Better to lose that Ulster QF.
As we've agreed before, best to have 2nd seeds based on league." It is better to have 2nd seeds based on league but I don't see it gaining the support required.
Sure the Seed 3s could draw Clare but if provincial winners are home to Seed 4s, they won't be too fussed over missing a road trip to Ennis!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8457 - 13/01/2025 21:38:34
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Replying To omahant: "No, and you wouldn't know from my latest post.
Tier 1 could start with the league's top 16 in year 1.
Promotion and relegation is via the AIC Shield KO (2nd of 3-tier AIC).
I re-post my idea in full below:
All-Ireland League-Championship (AILC) -
'Two-tier' league structure, encompassing Prov KO ties, within a 'Swiss System' match schedule, leading to a short concluding 'three-tier' AIC Series.
Two Options:
OPTION ONE
- Two league tiers of 16
- Prov KO ties double as league ties (all 4 rds, own tier only); any additional tier crossover ties (Tier 1v2) are Prov KO stand alone
- Play Prov Prelim & QF Rds early (1st half Feb); SFs (end Apr); and Finals (2nd half May)
- After Prov QFs, draw '4 groups of 4' in each tier
(from 4 seeding pots of 4)
- 12-match Regular Season (URC schedule, less 'own-group' ties - i.e. play other 12), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 12
- Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32, based on 12-match/ 16-team tables, advance to 'three-tier' AICs for Sam, Shield & Plate
- Teams placed 1 & 17 win "League 1" & "League 2"
- Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup); and 29-32 do not advance
- Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
- 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain Tier 1 status the next year
(PQF byes to 9,10,17,18).
Or, alternatively:
OPTION TWO
10-match Regular Season, same as "Option One", with the following changes:
- After Prov QFs, draw groups of 6, 5 & 5 in each tier
- 10-match schedule (6 v both 5s, each 5 plays own round-robin group), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 10." So in a Provincial Semi Final or Final where a tier 1 team are playing a tier 2 team those are extra games that are outside the 12 game schedule and are extra games for those involved. Say Kerry play and beat Waterford in the Munster Semi Final and then play another Tier 2 team [Clare ] in the Final-then these are 2 additional games for Kerry to add to their 12 game AILC schedule .Would they then be forgoing scheduled break weeks in order to play catch up?
Re the Provincial Finals- The full draw for the 12 game AILC takes place before the start with the Provincial Semi Finals built into that schedule. So the question is because [obviously] the Provincial Finalists are not known at the time the AILC draw is made might that fixture [or those fixtures] have taken place already?
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 77 - 13/01/2025 22:17:58
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Replying To legendzxix: "So difficult to move away from the current league structure. A tried and tested format from over many years. Hurling as you know is finally returning to a top division and a lower division below it.
Provincial winners avoiding Seed 3s should bring some bite. Win to avoid Derry or Tyrone from 2024 for example." It's a perfect secondary competition format. A change to it to make it the championship I'd think would be fine.
2 groups of 8 was the old league format and it was moved away from because it lacked intensity as retaining division 1 status was often the most important goal. As a championship it would have that required intensity.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4386 - 14/01/2025 13:05:34
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@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 73 - 13/01/2025 22:17:58
I didn't want to get into the weeds too much in case I put my audience to sleep. But thanks for showing interest.
I address your points as follows:
- A combined 12-game schedule is in line (reduction for the busiest teams) with the current variable 11-15 games (League 7-8; Province 1-4; and Group Stage 3).
- To draw 12 opponents (as 15 is too much), I chose the drawing of groups as a tool for choosing opponents (as own group is avoided, one can see at once which 3 teams will not be played - play other 12, all group crossover- UEFA chose a computer-driven randomised method for their Champions League schedule, less transparent)
- As potential Prov Finals need to be group crossover, a known Prov SF4 can be spread across Tier 1's 4 groups (and Tier 2, if those teams are present)
- To know each Prov SF4, I schedule Prov Prelim/QFs early [it would be very difficult to 'avoid' having 'both teams' in any Prov tie drawn to the same group, if the draw is done prior to Prov QFs (or worse, Prelims) - messy placeholders could be a work around]
- Yes, two extra games for Kerry, if they met inter-tier Waterford and Clare in Munster (so instead of 12 games/8 weeks free, it would be 14/6). To address, I offer the 10-
game option as an alternative to provide more space. Given the current 11-15 game load (prior to 3-4 more games needed to reach an AIC Final), the 12-game schedule seems right-sized to accommodate the two extra games, albeit with low intensity for Tier 1 teams.
Question:
Is it ok that all teams play for Prov titles, but Tier 2 teams are ineligible for Sam if they 'unlikely' win theirs; and Tier 1 Prov Champs must make the "top 8" to contest Sam?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3010 - 14/01/2025 14:07:44
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Replying To omahant: "@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 73 - 13/01/2025 22:17:58
I didn't want to get into the weeds too much in case I put my audience to sleep. But thanks for showing interest.
I address your points as follows:
- A combined 12-game schedule is in line (reduction for the busiest teams) with the current variable 11-15 games (League 7-8; Province 1-4; and Group Stage 3).
- To draw 12 opponents (as 15 is too much), I chose the drawing of groups as a tool for choosing opponents (as own group is avoided, one can see at once which 3 teams will not be played - play other 12, all group crossover- UEFA chose a computer-driven randomised method for their Champions League schedule, less transparent)
- As potential Prov Finals need to be group crossover, a known Prov SF4 can be spread across Tier 1's 4 groups (and Tier 2, if those teams are present)
- To know each Prov SF4, I schedule Prov Prelim/QFs early [it would be very difficult to 'avoid' having 'both teams' in any Prov tie drawn to the same group, if the draw is done prior to Prov QFs (or worse, Prelims) - messy placeholders could be a work around
- Yes, two extra games for Kerry, if they met inter-tier Waterford and Clare in Munster (so instead of 12 games/8 weeks free, it would be 14/6). To address, I offer the 10-
game option as an alternative to provide more space. Given the current 11-15 game load (prior to 3-4 more games needed to reach an AIC Final), the 12-game schedule seems right-sized to accommodate the two extra games, albeit with low intensity for Tier 1 teams.
Question:
Is it ok that all teams play for Prov titles, but Tier 2 teams are ineligible for Sam if they 'unlikely' win theirs; and Tier 1 Prov Champs must make the "top 8" to contest Sam?"]Still not quite sure how the Provincial Finals are built into the schedule. Taking 2024 as an example with the Connacht Championship-Mayo play Roscommon in the Semi Final. That game is part of the AILC schedule. Galway v Sligo in the other Semi Final is a stand alone fixture. So thats Galway v Mayo in the Final but what if when the draw for the 12 game AILC is made that particular game is scheduled for lets say round 2 or 3 i.e it has already being played.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 77 - 14/01/2025 16:03:31
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's a perfect secondary competition format. A change to it to make it the championship I'd think would be fine.
2 groups of 8 was the old league format and it was moved away from because it lacked intensity as retaining division 1 status was often the most important goal. As a championship it would have that required intensity." Ha! Same argument about the National Hurling League even groups of 1A and 1B that they have moved away from. It would have been fine for an All Ireland format.
The expectation on players is high. Hurlers van give the league a miss. Footballers are less likely to have that luxury.
The Allianz Football League is more appropriate for seeded provincial draws and also possibly seeded All Ireland qualifiers.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8457 - 14/01/2025 17:40:53
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Replying To legendzxix: "Ha! Same argument about the National Hurling League even groups of 1A and 1B that they have moved away from. It would have been fine for an All Ireland format.
The expectation on players is high. Hurlers van give the league a miss. Footballers are less likely to have that luxury.
The Allianz Football League is more appropriate for seeded provincial draws and also possibly seeded All Ireland qualifiers." The current hurling championship is great and it's very similar to the old 2 groups of 6 league.
That's my argument.
It's not good for the league to have such a wide division 1 but it would work for the championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4386 - 14/01/2025 18:38:16
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If Jarlath Burns' favoured double eliminator makes no distinction between winning and losing a provincial final, it could work out like the following:
ROUND 1:
Dublin* v Roscommon
Kerry* v Monaghan
Galway* v Derry
Donegal* v Tyrone
Mayo* v Cavan
Armagh* v Westmeath
Louth* v Meath
Clare v Cork*
ROUND 2A:
Dublin v Kerry*
Galway* v Donegal
Mayo v Armagh*
Louth v Cork*
ROUND 2B:
Roscommon v Monaghan*
Derry v Tyrone*
Cavan* v Westmeath
Meath* v Clare
PRELIMINARY QUARTER FINALS
Dublin* v Monaghan
Donegal* v Cavan
Mayo v Tyrone*
Cork* v Meath
QUARTER FINALS:
Kerry* v Tyrone
Galway* v Dublin
Armagh* v Cork
Louth v Donegal*
I think it is madness seeding Munster runners up Clare the same as Ulster winners Donegal. Also seems like madness to have unbeaten provincial winners clashing before the semi finals in Round 2.
Maybe people want that madness? Burns was talking about the championship being a blunt instrument.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8457 - 14/01/2025 20:22:42
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@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 74 - 14/01/2025 16:03:31
Prov Finals are 'staggered' and built into the schedule in advance (after Prov QFs and AILC groups known).
Per my Calendar below (re-posted from page 64), after Prov QFs, Mayo, Roscommon, Galway and Sligo are drawn to four different groups (ensures crossover Final).
Per my Calendar, all 8 Prov SFs are scheduled for Week 12 and all possible Finals for Weeks 16 & 17.
So Galway could be scheduled to play Roscommon in Week 16 and Mayo in Week 17 (one a likely Final, the other a league only tie).
Sligo could initially be given byes in Weeks 16 & 17 to allow for potentially scheduling an extra 'tier crossover' Final.
Separately, Ulster SF4 could all be Tier 1, and if so, there would be six ties between them - 2 SFs in Week 12, Final in Week 16 or 17 and 3 'league only' ties scheduled in Weeks 16 & 17 as well (SF losers play each other on the same week as the Ulster Final).
CALENDAR
Week Activity
-2 (mid Jan) Start of '2-3 game' Pre-Season
0 (end of Jan) End of Pre-Season Warm-Up
1 (start of Feb) Prov SFC Prelim Rd
2 Prov SFC QFs
2 (after QFs) AILC Draw (2 tiers of 4x4 or 6,5,5)
2 (after Draw) Prelim/QF results to league tables?
3 Bye Week
4 (end of Feb) First Full Regular Season Rd
12 (end of Apr) Rd includes all 8 Prov SFs
16 & 17 (end of May) Rds include 4 Prov Finals
20 Last Regular Season Rd
21 (end of June) Bye Week
22 AIC PSFs/PQFs, AI Shield PQFs & AI Plate QFs
23 AIC QFs & AI Shield QFs
24 AI Plate SFs
25 (end of July) AIC SFs & AI Shield SFs
26 AI Plate Final
27 (2nd week of Aug) AIC Final & AI Shield Final
Note - With each team scheduled to play 12 (or 10) 'staggered' regular season games in Weeks 1-20 and '0 to 4' post-season games in Weeks 22-27, the remaining 'inactive weeks' are deemed sufficient for rest time.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3010 - 14/01/2025 22:45:46
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Division 3 final and Tailteann final are the only finals with something on the line. Glasgow Celtic beat their arch rivals in a League Cup final. The GAA are possibly content for finals being about the glory of winning? No incentives required?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8457 - 15/01/2025 10:33:36
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Replying To legendzxix: "Division 3 final and Tailteann final are the only finals with something on the line. Glasgow Celtic beat their arch rivals in a League Cup final. The GAA are possibly content for finals being about the glory of winning? No incentives required?" Losing provincial finalists don't deserve to be seeded at the expense of higher ranked NFL teams. All Ireland entry is an outsized reward as is.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4386 - 15/01/2025 11:22:47
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Replying To Whammo86: "Losing provincial finalists don't deserve to be seeded at the expense of higher ranked NFL teams. All Ireland entry is an outsized reward as is." Are you against a provincial round robin because it increases the level of difficulty for the likes of Sligo?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8457 - 15/01/2025 11:50:51
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Replying To legendzxix: "Are you against a provincial round robin because it increases the level of difficulty for the likes of Sligo?" No it's because it generates superfluous fixtures which would be at the cost of an improved National Championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4386 - 15/01/2025 14:04:26
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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8418 - 15/01/2025 10:33:36
So my Shield and Plate (or Tailteann) could be worth winning? No promotion beyond Shield QFs.
Do you prefer Shield PQF byes and automatic following year Tier 1 status for 9-10-17-18 or 9-10-11-12, plus PQF winners?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3010 - 15/01/2025 14:59:34
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Replying To Whammo86: "No it's because it generates superfluous fixtures which would be at the cost of an improved National Championship." Is my AILC so bad with a 'combined' 12-match regular season?
For your AIC idea with '2 groups of 8', maybe your league would need to be reduced?
Keep the popular '4 divs of 8' but only play '4 or 5' of the 7 opponents?
That works too.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3010 - 15/01/2025 15:05:58
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Replying To omahant: "Is my AILC so bad with a 'combined' 12-match regular season?
For your AIC idea with '2 groups of 8', maybe your league would need to be reduced?
Keep the popular '4 divs of 8' but only play '4 or 5' of the 7 opponents?
That works too." I don't think there should be a league at all. I think there should be a tight intense inter county championship and there be a better balance between club and county.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4386 - 15/01/2025 15:39:48
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If there is a league it should be decoupled from Championship and played in parallel with Provincial and All Ireland club being brought forward to the start of year.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4386 - 15/01/2025 15:42:17
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Replying To omahant: "Is my AILC so bad with a 'combined' 12-match regular season?
For your AIC idea with '2 groups of 8', maybe your league would need to be reduced?
Keep the popular '4 divs of 8' but only play '4 or 5' of the 7 opponents?
That works too." It's not so bad no.
I just think 2 groups of 8 is a very natural way of running a competition moving to playoffs.
It retains a historical tradition of the league being made up of 8 team sections.
It is a football format that is pretty analogous to the successful hurling format, albeit without the Provincial element.
I think it can have a straightforward playoff phase and relegation element without sacrificing intensity of the group section.
A 27 week season devoted to inter county is out of balance with the club game.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4386 - 15/01/2025 17:24:06
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A season with provincial championship, 7 rounds of an All Ireland group phase, followed by playoffs is still going to be 21 weeks long. It's still more than half of the annual prime GAA playing time available each year.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4386 - 15/01/2025 17:27:30
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Replying To Whammo86: "No it's because it generates superfluous fixtures which would be at the cost of an improved National Championship." Antrim and Offaly have earned provincial status in hurling. There is no value in provincial status in football. If Connacht was 1 group of 4, would Sligo value provincial status more if there is a qualifying bar?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8457 - 15/01/2025 17:29:00
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