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They'd be better without the League finals and if the All Ireland phase were straight knock-out and should still include div 3 and 4 teams.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4348 - 08/01/2025 11:21:46
My AILC is not far off - no League Finals, short AIC (although for more incentive, I keep two double elimination ties, like Liam McC Cup 'last 8' or AFL) and with tiers 2 & 3 straight KO, having 12 of 16 div 3/4 teams combined.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 08/01/2025 15:19:25
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Replying To omahant: "They'd be better without the League finals and if the All Ireland phase were straight knock-out and should still include div 3 and 4 teams.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4348 - 08/01/2025 11:21:46
My AILC is not far off - no League Finals, short AIC (although for more incentive, I keep two double elimination ties, like Liam McC Cup 'last 8' or AFL) and with tiers 2 & 3 straight KO, having 12 of 16 div 3/4 teams combined." Whatever about some of the other things I don't love about your plan, I think having Provincials linked to the All Ireland but no pathway for a 2nd tier Provincial winner to compete in the All Ireland just is a hard position to justify. I can see your logic flowing through from the Tier 1 Provincial champions needing to earn their spot but still I think to me what it indicates is that it's not really feasible to combine everything as you are trying to do.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 08/01/2025 17:21:04
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Replying To Whammo86: "Whatever about some of the other things I don't love about your plan, I think having Provincials linked to the All Ireland but no pathway for a 2nd tier Provincial winner to compete in the All Ireland just is a hard position to justify. I can see your logic flowing through from the Tier 1 Provincial champions needing to earn their spot but still I think to me what it indicates is that it's not really feasible to combine everything as you are trying to do." Some voices talk about decoupling Prov SFCs from the AIC, or scrapping them entirely. While mine loosens the link, I think a 'tier 1' Ulster Champ would most likely earn enough match pts from those 3-4 Ulster games to 'almost' guarantee a berth in AI Sam.
OK, Kerry would have more work to do with possibly only 2pts in Munster - and of course - as you wrote, Tier 2 is ineligible for Sam.
I suppose I am trying to hold too much together but one could assume the likes of Tipp won't win Prov titles too often (prior to taking an AIC SF hiding).
In any event, weaker Prov Champs could still compete in an AIC at their own level (Shield or Plate), assuming avoidance of a 29-32 finish.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 08/01/2025 18:57:27
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Replying To Whammo86: "Whatever about some of the other things I don't love about your plan, I think having Provincials linked to the All Ireland but no pathway for a 2nd tier Provincial winner to compete in the All Ireland just is a hard position to justify. I can see your logic flowing through from the Tier 1 Provincial champions needing to earn their spot but still I think to me what it indicates is that it's not really feasible to combine everything as you are trying to do." I would put it like this -
Prov ties (own tier only) are linked to the league; and league position dictates which AIC a team enters.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 08/01/2025 19:06:19
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Replying To omahant: "Some voices talk about decoupling Prov SFCs from the AIC, or scrapping them entirely. While mine loosens the link, I think a 'tier 1' Ulster Champ would most likely earn enough match pts from those 3-4 Ulster games to 'almost' guarantee a berth in AI Sam.
OK, Kerry would have more work to do with possibly only 2pts in Munster - and of course - as you wrote, Tier 2 is ineligible for Sam.
I suppose I am trying to hold too much together but one could assume the likes of Tipp won't win Prov titles too often (prior to taking an AIC SF hiding).
In any event, weaker Prov Champs could still compete in an AIC at their own level (Shield or Plate), assuming avoidance of a 29-32 finish." At a basic level, Tier 2 winners should get to play in Tier 1. The Europa League winner qualifies for the Champions League. The Tailteann winner qualifies for the All Ireland.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 08/01/2025 19:57:52
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Replying To legendzxix: "At a basic level, Tier 2 winners should get to play in Tier 1. The Europa League winner qualifies for the Champions League. The Tailteann winner qualifies for the All Ireland." OK, makes sense.
In the Shield, I have 9-12 with PQF byes and retention of Tier 1 status, with 13-20 in 4 'win your way up' PQFs (say, 17-20 hosts 16-13).
The byes could be changed, if there's a better alternative.
What could that be - byes and Tier 1 status for 9-10-11-17 or 9-10-17-18?
To take it a step further - I have Tier 2 Prov Champs as ineligible for Sam - should team 17 playoff with team 8 for Sam berth and possibly 18v7 (this is getting into the 'Proposal B/team 6 issue' of a few yrs ago, which I most dislike).
In my hypothetical AILC design, would the Shield be worth winning (akin maybe to winning the actual NFL Div 2, if not the Europa League).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 09/01/2025 04:10:58
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Replying To omahant: "Some voices talk about decoupling Prov SFCs from the AIC, or scrapping them entirely. While mine loosens the link, I think a 'tier 1' Ulster Champ would most likely earn enough match pts from those 3-4 Ulster games to 'almost' guarantee a berth in AI Sam.
OK, Kerry would have more work to do with possibly only 2pts in Munster - and of course - as you wrote, Tier 2 is ineligible for Sam.
I suppose I am trying to hold too much together but one could assume the likes of Tipp won't win Prov titles too often (prior to taking an AIC SF hiding).
In any event, weaker Prov Champs could still compete in an AIC at their own level (Shield or Plate), assuming avoidance of a 29-32 finish." Yeah I think your attempt is good you are just fighting a bit of a losing battle.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 09/01/2025 08:46:57
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Replying To omahant: "OK, makes sense.
In the Shield, I have 9-12 with PQF byes and retention of Tier 1 status, with 13-20 in 4 'win your way up' PQFs (say, 17-20 hosts 16-13).
The byes could be changed, if there's a better alternative.
What could that be - byes and Tier 1 status for 9-10-11-17 or 9-10-17-18?
To take it a step further - I have Tier 2 Prov Champs as ineligible for Sam - should team 17 playoff with team 8 for Sam berth and possibly 18v7 (this is getting into the 'Proposal B/team 6 issue' of a few yrs ago, which I most dislike).
In my hypothetical AILC design, would the Shield be worth winning (akin maybe to winning the actual NFL Div 2, if not the Europa League)." I think something better would be a 2 stream solution that keeps Provincials meaningful but doesn't overweight them.
Off the top of my head.
De-couple league from championship can be played alongside club All Ireland again.
Have an All Ireland group phase with 3 groups of 6.
Have Provincials as they are now played in parallel with this group stage.
Top 3 per All Ireland group qualify for playoffs plus any Provincial champions not already qualified.
You'd have between 9 and 13 teams in the knockout rounds, 1 to 5 preliminary quarterfinals, Provincial champions in the top 3 in their group guaranteed a quarterfinal place, have to play a preliminary quarterfinal otherwise.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 09/01/2025 10:31:41
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Briefly.
Ulster - 2 groups of 4
Leinster - 2 groups of 4
Munster - 1 group of 4
Connacht - 1 group of 4
Tailteann Cup - 2 groups of 4.
Top 2 from the six provincial groups into the All Ireland knockout Round of 16.
The six 3rd placed teams, Tailteann winner and New York contesting a playoff for the final 4 places in the Round of 16.
The league is completed over the current 10 weekends. After a weekend off, the provincial championships are completed over 8 weekends. After a weekend off, the Round of 16, quarter finals, semi finals and final are played every second weekend.
Promotion and relegation from provincial championships to Tailteann Cup a matter to be agreed.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 09/01/2025 11:51:54
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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8401 - 09/01/2025 11:51:54
Ulster and Connacht looks appetising, Leinster and Leinster leaves me wanting.
Some blend of traditional Prov ties and mouthwatering cross-Prov 'showdowns' (e.g. Kerry v Done) is the sweet spot for me.
Same for hurling - give me a Kilk v Lime AIC group clash etc.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 09/01/2025 13:48:34
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Replying To omahant: "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8401 - 09/01/2025 11:51:54
Ulster and Connacht looks appetising, Leinster and Leinster leaves me wanting.
Some blend of traditional Prov ties and mouthwatering cross-Prov 'showdowns' (e.g. Kerry v Done) is the sweet spot for me.
Same for hurling - give me a Kilk v Lime AIC group clash etc." ....Leinster and Munster leaves me wanting....
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 09/01/2025 15:31:14
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Replying To omahant: "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8401 - 09/01/2025 11:51:54
Ulster and Connacht looks appetising, Leinster and Leinster leaves me wanting.
Some blend of traditional Prov ties and mouthwatering cross-Prov 'showdowns' (e.g. Kerry v Done) is the sweet spot for me.
Same for hurling - give me a Kilk v Lime AIC group clash etc." You know that traditional provincial ties would happen in a fully national championship.
Like if there was a 2 groups of 8 format, there'd still be plenty of Ulster v Ulster games.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 09/01/2025 17:04:35
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Replying To legendzxix: "Briefly.
Ulster - 2 groups of 4
Leinster - 2 groups of 4
Munster - 1 group of 4
Connacht - 1 group of 4
Tailteann Cup - 2 groups of 4.
Top 2 from the six provincial groups into the All Ireland knockout Round of 16.
The six 3rd placed teams, Tailteann winner and New York contesting a playoff for the final 4 places in the Round of 16.
The league is completed over the current 10 weekends. After a weekend off, the provincial championships are completed over 8 weekends. After a weekend off, the Round of 16, quarter finals, semi finals and final are played every second weekend.
Promotion and relegation from provincial championships to Tailteann Cup a matter to be agreed." I just don't think this would be that good at all.
Barely solves any problems that existed from the qualifiers era.
I don't think people want more Provincial championship games. Even in Ulster I think they love the cut and thrust of it being knockout.
The Connacht championship would be worse than the current one.
I don't think these competitions or your Tailteann justify taking 8 teams out of their Provincial championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 09/01/2025 17:35:32
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Replying To Whammo86: "You know that traditional provincial ties would happen in a fully national championship.
Like if there was a 2 groups of 8 format, there'd still be plenty of Ulster v Ulster games." I know, but there is a different feel for Prov ties, as opposed to just a national group game (like AIC group phase). In my AILC, I link both to get the best of both.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 09/01/2025 17:48:50
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Replying To Whammo86: "I just don't think this would be that good at all.
Barely solves any problems that existed from the qualifiers era.
I don't think people want more Provincial championship games. Even in Ulster I think they love the cut and thrust of it being knockout.
The Connacht championship would be worse than the current one.
I don't think these competitions or your Tailteann justify taking 8 teams out of their Provincial championship." Ulster groups of 4 with top 2 going to semi-finals will have cut and thrust. The Munster hurling championship has benefited from the group stage. Ulster would most likely be the same.
Connacht will be at least a 3 way battle for a place in the final.
Cork and Clare should be a battle for a Munster final. Whoever comes out on top will be setting up a fair Munster final.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 09/01/2025 19:45:16
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Replying To legendzxix: "Ulster groups of 4 with top 2 going to semi-finals will have cut and thrust. The Munster hurling championship has benefited from the group stage. Ulster would most likely be the same.
Connacht will be at least a 3 way battle for a place in the final.
Cork and Clare should be a battle for a Munster final. Whoever comes out on top will be setting up a fair Munster final." There's not a lot of room in the calendar for excess fixtures that aren't really necessary.
Providing more Provincial fixtures comes at the cost of getting teams playing championship games against teams around their level.
Sligo playing in a knockout Connacht championship makes sense they get a test against one of the better 3 teams, if they pull of a shock they get another good test.
Does them playing all 3 other teams and going out in the first round give Sligo a meaningful season and show where they are at.
Even simplifying to a Roscommon, Galway, Mayo mini tournament, is it better for that resolved by 2 games or 4 games where the final is a repeat of a fixture from a matter of weeks ago?
Same issues with Munster.
I think that's you are looking at this problem too 1 dimensionally. Yes Provincial rivalries and distances between teams add spice and interest to a fixture but it is not the only factor at play and I'd suggest you are focusing on it at the expense of everything else.
To me it's quite concerning that a proposal similar to yours was getting airtime as a possible alternative championship in official channels. It's not good.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 10/01/2025 12:17:30
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Replying To Whammo86: "There's not a lot of room in the calendar for excess fixtures that aren't really necessary.
Providing more Provincial fixtures comes at the cost of getting teams playing championship games against teams around their level.
Sligo playing in a knockout Connacht championship makes sense they get a test against one of the better 3 teams, if they pull of a shock they get another good test.
Does them playing all 3 other teams and going out in the first round give Sligo a meaningful season and show where they are at.
Even simplifying to a Roscommon, Galway, Mayo mini tournament, is it better for that resolved by 2 games or 4 games where the final is a repeat of a fixture from a matter of weeks ago?
Same issues with Munster.
I think that's you are looking at this problem too 1 dimensionally. Yes Provincial rivalries and distances between teams add spice and interest to a fixture but it is not the only factor at play and I'd suggest you are focusing on it at the expense of everything else.
To me it's quite concerning that a proposal similar to yours was getting airtime as a possible alternative championship in official channels. It's not good." You make a fair point about Sligo but then Sligo are content to benefit from a lopsided Connacht draw to qualify for the All Ireland group stage.
If the intent of provincial championships is to allow lopsided draws, provincial champions only should be qualifying through the provincial championships, with all the rest qualifying through league ranking.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 10/01/2025 13:23:34
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Replying To legendzxix: "You make a fair point about Sligo but then Sligo are content to benefit from a lopsided Connacht draw to qualify for the All Ireland group stage.
If the intent of provincial championships is to allow lopsided draws, provincial champions only should be qualifying through the provincial championships, with all the rest qualifying through league ranking." I completely agree with only Provincial champions or Provincial runners up needing to play their way in.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 10/01/2025 13:59:53
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Replying To Whammo86: "I completely agree with only Provincial champions or Provincial runners up needing to play their way in." Of those two options, the timescale isn't there for provincial runners up to play their way in. Provincial runners up would have to play at least two weeks after their provincial finals. All Ireland Round 1 should see Leinster and Ulster winners playing no more than two weeks after their provincial finals, as is currently the case.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 10/01/2025 17:03:44
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Replying To Whammo86: "There's not a lot of room in the calendar for excess fixtures that aren't really necessary.
Providing more Provincial fixtures comes at the cost of getting teams playing championship games against teams around their level.
Sligo playing in a knockout Connacht championship makes sense they get a test against one of the better 3 teams, if they pull of a shock they get another good test.
Does them playing all 3 other teams and going out in the first round give Sligo a meaningful season and show where they are at.
Even simplifying to a Roscommon, Galway, Mayo mini tournament, is it better for that resolved by 2 games or 4 games where the final is a repeat of a fixture from a matter of weeks ago?
Same issues with Munster.
I think that's you are looking at this problem too 1 dimensionally. Yes Provincial rivalries and distances between teams add spice and interest to a fixture but it is not the only factor at play and I'd suggest you are focusing on it at the expense of everything else.
To me it's quite concerning that a proposal similar to yours was getting airtime as a possible alternative championship in official channels. It's not good." Big picture - should the inter-county footprint be reduced?
Say, if the league remains - keep the popular 4 divs of 8, but only play 5 of the 7 games - Swiss System as teams ranked 1&8 avoid 4&5; and 2&7 avoid 3&6 (or have a draw to see which of those 4 pairs avoid another).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 10/01/2025 19:12:44
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