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Replying To edu: "In 2024 the football season had 27 matchdays [Weekends from the start of the N.L to the A.I.C Final. Now the N.L took up 10 of those 27 matchdays Including 2 rest matchdays . That is 38% of the football calendar. Does that not seem overly obsessive for a competition that is the secondary competition?"]I get you Edu but the league positions gives seedings for the championship. I think it should be the only competition to determine the seedings. They could run some rounds of the league, play provincial championships with no bearing on seeding or All Ireland qualification, then the remaining rounds of the leagues. With seedings to play for and no provincial final finish type of backdoor for All Ireland it might spice up the league a bit. It would also give counties a fairly even break before championship, not like the staggered times because of the different lengths of provincial championships.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7704 - 21/12/2024 15:57:49
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Replying To omahant: "Yeah it's too much and it reduces the flexibility to have a better All Ireland.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4343 - 21/12/2024 10:32:39
Yeah, keep 'em as a 'subset' and have a better All Ireland (AILC) - am I a broken record?" The league is a tried and tested format. It provides a fair ranking 1 to 32. The key is to utilise that ranking for balanced provincial draws and/or balanced draws for qualifiers.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 21/12/2024 16:13:59
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To edu: "In 2024 the football season had 27 matchdays [Weekends from the start of the N.L to the A.I.C Final. Now the N.L took up 10 of those 27 matchdays Including 2 rest matchdays . That is 38% of the football calendar. Does that not seem overly obsessive for a competition that is the secondary competition?"
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2015 - 21/12/2024 17:14:53
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Replying To legendzxix: "The league is a tried and tested format. It provides a fair ranking 1 to 32. The key is to utilise that ranking for balanced provincial draws and/or balanced draws for qualifiers." Indeed, the league is tried & tested and ranks teams 1-32.
I use that ranking to determine my three-tier AIC (e.g. 1-8 to Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to Shield KO; & 21-28 to Plate KO (could be Tailteann Cup).
I use ranking (9-12) for Shield PQF byes/Tier 1 status retention.
I was silent on Prov seeding, but it could be used there too.
I suppose in the AILC, Prov seeding is not as critical because all play 12 (or 10) 'own tier' teams (3 from each of 4 seeding pots), regardless of how the Prov subset breaks down.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 21/12/2024 19:53:24
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Replying To omahant: "Indeed, the league is tried & tested and ranks teams 1-32.
I use that ranking to determine my three-tier AIC (e.g. 1-8 to Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to Shield KO; & 21-28 to Plate KO (could be Tailteann Cup).
I use ranking (9-12) for Shield PQF byes/Tier 1 status retention.
I was silent on Prov seeding, but it could be used there too.
I suppose in the AILC, Prov seeding is not as critical because all play 12 (or 10) 'own tier' teams (3 from each of 4 seeding pots), regardless of how the Prov subset breaks down." You say 1-8 AFL style playoffs. The GAA are essentially going with a 16 team AFL style playoff in your language, albeit 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers.
You say three tier AIC. The GAA have the All Ireland and Tailteann. The GAA did speak with counties about introducing a third tier. Hasn't gained traction so far but probably will in time.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 21/12/2024 21:21:01
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@GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7702 - 21/12/2024 15:57:49
What about having those Prov SFC games awarding match pts as league ties as well (per my AILC), which ultimately determines league seeding?
The difference in Prov SFC length woud be neutralised - each team either plays more Prov games, or 'league only' games instead, for the same game total.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 22/12/2024 01:00:19
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Replying To legendzxix: "You say 1-8 AFL style playoffs. The GAA are essentially going with a 16 team AFL style playoff in your language, albeit 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers.
You say three tier AIC. The GAA have the All Ireland and Tailteann. The GAA did speak with counties about introducing a third tier. Hasn't gained traction so far but probably will in time." Yes, it's a 16-team AFL from Rd 2A/2B (only half the teams with a back door) - so Rd 1 is an add on (all with a back door).
In my AILC, 'Prov F 8' would have to earn sufficient pts to advance (Prov ties contribute, but don't guarantee). The latter could be a good compromise between retaining tradition (Prov SFCs), making them more valuable (awarding match pts, 'own tier', rather than going to the current group phase with none) and having an overall better structure (equitable for all).
When three tiers - should the Tailteann Cup be bumped to Tier 3 (like the initial Christy Ring) or Tier 2? Or my naming convention - Sam, Shield & Plate?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 23/12/2024 14:16:34
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My AILC gives you a lot of what you're looking for.
If you don't mind, please critique my AILC - what do you NOT like? - it's good for me to tweak as needed.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 23/12/2024 14:46:15
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Replying To omahant: "My AILC gives you a lot of what you're looking for.
If you don't mind, please critique my AILC - what do you NOT like? - it's good for me to tweak as needed." I'm not sure how you plan on running the Provincials. Do only 16 teams enter them, if not what if a team from outside the top tier win their province. Do they have a pathway to the All Ireland.
It would be hard to not have that pathway but it gets very complicated very quickly if they are able to.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 23/12/2024 16:58:14
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Replying To Whammo86: "I'm not sure how you plan on running the Provincials. Do only 16 teams enter them, if not what if a team from outside the top tier win their province. Do they have a pathway to the All Ireland.
It would be hard to not have that pathway but it gets very complicated very quickly if they are able to." Prov SFCs - No change, lopsided as ever - I didn't consider a better seeding for them either, but you could.
33 teams - 29 KO games, reducing the 33 to 4 Champs.
I have Prov Prelim & QFs (1st 2 weeks Feb); all 8 SFs (end Apr); and 4 Finals (last 2 weeks May).
Each 'SF4' is split across 4 groups to ensure each Final pairing and all 4 Prov rd ties are not drawn to same group (that's why I want QF results early, so AILC draw restrictions will be known).
Prov Champs 'outside top 8' - Ineligible for AI Sam title, including 'Tier 1 bottom 8' at end of league and 'All Tier 2' at beginning of the league.
I toyed with providing that Champ guarantee "pathway" to the AIC Series (Sam), but as you said, it gets "complicated very quickly" (I call it "messy", as teams would no longer need to strive for league pts/position).
Consolation - both League Tiers are eligible for the 'AI Shield' (2nd of 3 AIC grades) at the beginning of the league.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 23/12/2024 21:52:52
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Its a sign that the current football structure is so bad, that this thread never ends. It quitened down for a while when the last change was brought - but is back with a vengeance
I hope they put Jim Gavin's team to work on this next and put it to bed for once and for all.
To me the solution has to be simple and has to allow the best teams be whittled down in a fair manner - with an ultimate knock out system to finish.
There are are some basic principles:
1. Local rivals (not neighbours - rivals) have to play annually/bi annually
2. One bad game shouldn't result in an insurmountably hard run of fixtures as punishment
3. Lower level teams have to have an opportunity to progress
4. One bad season with a bad manager shouldn't exclude you from high level competition the following year
5. Continual poor performance should be rewarded with exclusion from high level competition
6. Lower level performers should get an opportunity to develop against similar level teams in knock out football
7. All teams should get high quality matches through the season
8. Mis-matches are to be limited as much as possible - more important than ever if the blanket defence is no more
9. The season should be 30 weekends long and have 12-15 matches per county with an odd replay possible
With that in mind -
1. All players given one month off after end of club championship season (mandatory)
2. December for provincial warm up competitions - finals on new year's day
3. League starts first weekend in January
4. Div 1A & B (5 team groups), 2A&B (5 team groups), 3 (6 team group) and 4 (6 teams)
EXAMPLE DRAW
Div1A - Derry, Kerry, Galway, Tyrone, Armagh
Div1B - Dublin, Mayo, Roscommon, Donegal, Monaghan
Div2A - Cavan, Meath, Kildare, Down, Clare
Div2B - Cork, Louth, Fermanagh, Westmeath, Sligo
Div 3 - Antrim, Offaly, Limerick, Wicklow, Laois, Leitrim
Div 4 - London, Longford, Carlow, Wexford, Waterford, Tipp
5. League ends in play offs to determine final league placings (1-32) - final the weekend of St Patricks day
6. Provincial knock out championships are seeded into A&B based on league performance (with a C grade in Leinster)
EXAMPLE Draw
Connacht - A (Mayo, Galway, Roscommon), B (Sligo, Leitrim, London)
Ulster - A (Donegal, Armagh, Derry, Tyrone), B (Monaghan, Down, Fermanagh, Antrim, Cavan)
Munster. - A (Cork, Kerry, Clare), B (Tipp, Waterford, Limerick)
Leinster - A (Dublin, Kildare, Louth, Meath), B (Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Longford), C (Carlow, Wexford, Wicklow, all Ireland junior champs)
7. All Ireland groups
Sam Maguire qualifiers
Group 1 - provincial winners graded by league placing 1-4 (eg. Galway, Dublin, Donegal, Kerry)
Group 2 - grade A provincial final losers by league placing from 5-8 (eg Mayo, Armagh, Cork, Louth)
Group 3 - league finish to determine 9-14 (Tyrone, Derry, Roscommon, Cavan, Meath, Kildare)
Group 4 - playoffs for provincal B winners to seed 15-16. (Westmeath, Monaghan) - previous years B winners goes in here if not already qualified
All Ireland senior draw
Seeds 1-8 in one bowl - seeds 9-16 in the other
4x4 groups - all neutral venues bar provincial winners get a home game
Teams who lose first match play each other in 2nd match
Teams finishing bottom of group play off against top B team(s) in their province for position in provincial groups the following year
All Ireland B
8 best teams from league placings not in sam maguire
(Limerick, Sligo, Down, Wicklow, Antrim, Offaly, Fermanagh and Clare)
2 x groups of 4 - semi finals and final
final played night before All Ireland A
Winner guaranteed Sam Maguire in following year
All Ireland C
8 remaining teams
London, Wexford, Waterford, Tipp, Longford, Laois, Carlow, & Lietrim
2x4 - semi finals and final and relegation play off to junior
Final played as curtain raiser to all ireland A
Dublin
- 5 league matches plus play offs (+2 if in league final or +1 if in relegation play off)
- 3 Leinster matches (round robin) - + 1 final,
- 3 all Ireland group matches
- 1 all Ireland knock out match (+3 if in final)
Min 12 matches - Max of 18
Leitrim
- 5 league matches (+1 if in final)
- 2 Connacht matches (+1 if in B final, +2 if progress to playoff)
- 3 all Ireland group matches
- 1 all Ireland kick out match (+2 if in final)
Min of 11 matches - Max of 16
All sorted - put me on the Com-it-eeeee
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1205 - 03/01/2025 06:43:46
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Briefly. Bring back the qualifiers. Seeded draws and byes determined by league ranking. Adjusted slightly depending on the progress of the Tailteann winner getting to their provincial final or not.
PROVINCIAL ROUND 1: (18 teams)
Leinster and Ulster preliminary round
Connacht and Munster quarter finals
PROVINCIAL ROUND 2: (24 teams)
Leinster and Ulster quarter finals
Connacht and Munster semi finals
PROVINCIAL ROUND 3: (8 teams)
Leinster and Ulster semi finals
PROVINCIAL ROUND 4: (8 teams)
Leinster and Ulster finals
Connacht and Munster finals
ALL IRELAND QUALIFIER ROUND 1: (9 teams)
9 provincial round 1 losers. Highest from league given bye to Q2.
ALL IRELAND QUALIFIER ROUND 2: (17 teams)
12 provincial round 2 losers and 5 Q1 winners. Highest provincial round 2 loser given bye to Q3.
ALL IRELAND QUALIFIER ROUND 3: (13 teams)
4 provincial round 3 losers and 9 Q2 winners. 3 highest provincial round 3 losers given bye to All Ireland series.
NOTES:
I hope all administrators and contributors enjoyed a pleasant Christmas!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 03/01/2025 09:16:26
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Its a sign that the current football structure is so bad, that this thread never ends. It quitened down for a while when the last change was brought - but is back with a vengeance
I hope they put Jim Gavin's team to work on this next and put it to bed for once and for all.
To me the solution has to be simple and has to allow the best teams be whittled down in a fair manner - with an ultimate knock out system to finish.
There are are some basic principles:
1. Local rivals (not neighbours - rivals) have to play annually/bi annually
2. One bad game shouldn't result in an insurmountably hard run of fixtures as punishment
3. Lower level teams have to have an opportunity to progress
4. One bad season with a bad manager shouldn't exclude you from high level competition the following year
5. Continual poor performance should be rewarded with exclusion from high level competition
6. Lower level performers should get an opportunity to develop against similar level teams in knock out football
7. All teams should get high quality matches through the season
8. Mis-matches are to be limited as much as possible - more important than ever if the blanket defence is no more
9. The season should be 30 weekends long and have 12-15 matches per county with an odd replay possible
With that in mind -
1. All players given one month off after end of club championship season (mandatory)
2. December for provincial warm up competitions - finals on new year's day
3. League starts first weekend in January
4. Div 1A & B (5 team groups), 2A&B (5 team groups), 3 (6 team group) and 4 (6 teams)
EXAMPLE DRAW
Div1A - Derry, Kerry, Galway, Tyrone, Armagh
Div1B - Dublin, Mayo, Roscommon, Donegal, Monaghan
Div2A - Cavan, Meath, Kildare, Down, Clare
Div2B - Cork, Louth, Fermanagh, Westmeath, Sligo
Div 3 - Antrim, Offaly, Limerick, Wicklow, Laois, Leitrim
Div 4 - London, Longford, Carlow, Wexford, Waterford, Tipp
5. League ends in play offs to determine final league placings (1-32) - final the weekend of St Patricks day
6. Provincial knock out championships are seeded into A&B based on league performance (with a C grade in Leinster)
EXAMPLE Draw
Connacht - A (Mayo, Galway, Roscommon), B (Sligo, Leitrim, London)
Ulster - A (Donegal, Armagh, Derry, Tyrone), B (Monaghan, Down, Fermanagh, Antrim, Cavan)
Munster. - A (Cork, Kerry, Clare), B (Tipp, Waterford, Limerick)
Leinster - A (Dublin, Kildare, Louth, Meath), B (Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Longford), C (Carlow, Wexford, Wicklow, all Ireland junior champs)
7. All Ireland groups
Sam Maguire qualifiers
Group 1 - provincial winners graded by league placing 1-4 (eg. Galway, Dublin, Donegal, Kerry)
Group 2 - grade A provincial final losers by league placing from 5-8 (eg Mayo, Armagh, Cork, Louth)
Group 3 - league finish to determine 9-14 (Tyrone, Derry, Roscommon, Cavan, Meath, Kildare)
Group 4 - playoffs for provincal B winners to seed 15-16. (Westmeath, Monaghan) - previous years B winners goes in here if not already qualified
All Ireland senior draw
Seeds 1-8 in one bowl - seeds 9-16 in the other
4x4 groups - all neutral venues bar provincial winners get a home game
Teams who lose first match play each other in 2nd match
Teams finishing bottom of group play off against top B team(s) in their province for position in provincial groups the following year
All Ireland B
8 best teams from league placings not in sam maguire
(Limerick, Sligo, Down, Wicklow, Antrim, Offaly, Fermanagh and Clare)
2 x groups of 4 - semi finals and final
final played night before All Ireland A
Winner guaranteed Sam Maguire in following year
All Ireland C
8 remaining teams
London, Wexford, Waterford, Tipp, Longford, Laois, Carlow, & Lietrim
2x4 - semi finals and final and relegation play off to junior
Final played as curtain raiser to all ireland A
Dublin
- 5 league matches plus play offs (+2 if in league final or +1 if in relegation play off)
- 3 Leinster matches (round robin) - + 1 final,
- 3 all Ireland group matches
- 1 all Ireland knock out match (+3 if in final)
Min 12 matches - Max of 18
Leitrim
- 5 league matches (+1 if in final)
- 2 Connacht matches (+1 if in B final, +2 if progress to playoff)
- 3 all Ireland group matches
- 1 all Ireland kick out match (+2 if in final)
Min of 11 matches - Max of 16
All sorted - put me on the Com-it-eeeee" 30 weeks is too long for a county season, the current 27 weeks is too long as a start.
I don't see how your championship is actually any better than the current championship.
Why should the provincials be graded.
Having groups of 5 in the league isn't great.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 03/01/2025 11:46:55
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Happy New Year to all.
I'd be very happy if one of you betters mine below - please feel free to offer positive and negative opinions:
All-Ireland League-Championship (AILC) -
'Two-tier' league structure, encompassing Prov KO ties, within a 'Swiss System' match schedule, leading to a short concluding 'three-tier' AIC Series.
Two Options:
OPTION ONE
- Two league tiers of 16
- Prov KO ties double as league ties (all 4 rds, own tier only); any additional tier crossover ties (Tier 1v2) are Prov KO stand alone
- Play Prov Prelim & QF Rds early (1st half Feb); SFs (end Apr); and Finals (2nd half May)
- After Prov QFs, draw '4 groups of 4' in each tier
(groups have 1 team from each of 4 seeding pots)
- 12-match Regular Season (URC schedule, less 'own-group' ties - i.e. play other 12), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 12
- Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32, based on 12-match/ 16-team tables, advance to a 'three-tier' AIC for Sam, Shield & Plate
- Teams placed 1 & 17 win "League 1" & "League 2"
- Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup); and 29-32 do not advance
- Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
- 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain Tier 1 status the next year.
Or, alternatively:
OPTION TWO
10-match Regular Season, same as "Option One", with the following changes:
- After Prov QFs, draw groups of 6, 5 & 5 in each tier
- 10-match schedule (6 v both 5s, each 5 plays own round-robin group), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 10
______
CALENDAR
Week Activity
-2 (mid Jan) Start of '2-3 game' Pre-Season
0 (end of Jan) End of Pre-Season Warm-Up
1 (start of Feb) Prov SFC Prelim Rd
2 Prov SFC QFs
2 (after QFs) AILC Draw (2 tiers of 4x4 or 6,5,5)
2 (after Draw) Prelim/QF results to league tables?
3 Bye Week
4 (end of Feb) First Full Regular Season Rd
12 (end of Apr) Rd includes all 8 Prov SFs
16 & 17 (end of May) Rds include 4 Prov Finals
20 Last Regular Season Rd
21 (end of June) Bye Week
22 AIC PSFs/PQFs, AI Shield PQFs & AI Plate QFs
23 AIC QFs & AI Shield QFs
24 AI Plate SFs
25 (end of July) AIC SFs & AI Shield SFs
26 AI Plate Final
27 (2nd week of Aug) AIC Final & AI Shield Final
Note - With each team scheduled to play 12 (or 10) 'staggered' regular season games in Weeks 1-20 and '0 to 4' post-season games in Weeks 22-27, the remaining 'inactive weeks' are deemed sufficient for rest time.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 03/01/2025 13:55:29
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Replying To omahant: "Happy New Year to all.
I'd be very happy if one of you betters mine below - please feel free to offer positive and negative opinions:
All-Ireland League-Championship (AILC) -
'Two-tier' league structure, encompassing Prov KO ties, within a 'Swiss System' match schedule, leading to a short concluding 'three-tier' AIC Series.
Two Options:
OPTION ONE
- Two league tiers of 16
- Prov KO ties double as league ties (all 4 rds, own tier only); any additional tier crossover ties (Tier 1v2) are Prov KO stand alone
- Play Prov Prelim & QF Rds early (1st half Feb); SFs (end Apr); and Finals (2nd half May)
- After Prov QFs, draw '4 groups of 4' in each tier
(groups have 1 team from each of 4 seeding pots)
- 12-match Regular Season (URC schedule, less 'own-group' ties - i.e. play other 12), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 12
- Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32, based on 12-match/ 16-team tables, advance to a 'three-tier' AIC for Sam, Shield & Plate
- Teams placed 1 & 17 win "League 1" & "League 2"
- Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup); and 29-32 do not advance
- Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
- 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain Tier 1 status the next year.
Or, alternatively:
OPTION TWO
10-match Regular Season, same as "Option One", with the following changes:
- After Prov QFs, draw groups of 6, 5 & 5 in each tier
- 10-match schedule (6 v both 5s, each 5 plays own round-robin group), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 10
______
CALENDAR
Week Activity
-2 (mid Jan) Start of '2-3 game' Pre-Season
0 (end of Jan) End of Pre-Season Warm-Up
1 (start of Feb) Prov SFC Prelim Rd
2 Prov SFC QFs
2 (after QFs) AILC Draw (2 tiers of 4x4 or 6,5,5)
2 (after Draw) Prelim/QF results to league tables?
3 Bye Week
4 (end of Feb) First Full Regular Season Rd
12 (end of Apr) Rd includes all 8 Prov SFs
16 & 17 (end of May) Rds include 4 Prov Finals
20 Last Regular Season Rd
21 (end of June) Bye Week
22 AIC PSFs/PQFs, AI Shield PQFs & AI Plate QFs
23 AIC QFs & AI Shield QFs
24 AI Plate SFs
25 (end of July) AIC SFs & AI Shield SFs
26 AI Plate Final
27 (2nd week of Aug) AIC Final & AI Shield Final
Note - With each team scheduled to play 12 (or 10) 'staggered' regular season games in Weeks 1-20 and '0 to 4' post-season games in Weeks 22-27, the remaining 'inactive weeks' are deemed sufficient for rest time." Ok I'm going to respectfully list a few things I don't like about your proposals.
It's a bit weird to include Provincial ties in the All Ireland with no pathway for tier 2 teams to win the All Ireland if they win their province.
I don't like the double elimination playoffs.
I don't really understand what's at stake beyond the quarterfinals of the shield or in the plate competition at all.
I don't know if the GAA public would really be receptive to a competition that doesn't share much dna of its traditional competitions.
I think option 2 is particularly bad, especially don't like that middle tier teams aren't actually playing one another at all throughout their regular season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4355 - 03/01/2025 17:20:04
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In 2024:
4 of the 7 league qualifiers were from Ulster: Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan and Cavan.
1 of the 7 league qualifiers were from Leinster: Westmeath.
1 of the 7 league qualifiers were from Munster: Cork.
1 of the 7 league qualifiers were from Connacht: Roscommon.
There is an argument that league qualification is doing what it was designed to do and that Ulster are benefitting from that. The fly in the ointment was Clare beating Waterford to consign Down to the Tailteann Cup. In 2023 the fly in the ointment was Sligo beating London and New York to consign Meath to the Tailteann.
Jarlath Burns says: "The clue is in the title of the competition - the championship is there to get the champions."
All provinces regardless of seeding can only produce one winner. Provincial winners only should qualify with league qualification for the remainder.
Under the current group system I would argue that provincial winners should be rewarded as hosts of a group. Provincial winners with 3 home games and all others 1 home game. Top 2 only should qualify for quarter finals.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 03/01/2025 21:04:37
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Since the inception of the A.I.C 140 odd years ago the 4 Provincial Championships have been linked to it. That link had remained constant for most of that time [up till 2000] where a team had to win their Provincial Championship in order to progress in the A.I.C.
That changed with the advent of the Qualifiers in 2001 when for the first time a team could lose in their P.C and still progress in the A.I.C or even win it. Winning a P.C did however confer a significant reward--direct entry into Q.F and avoidance of other P.C. Winners in that round. Even getting to a P.C Final guaranteed a last 12 place.
Similarly with the super 8s the 4 P.C. Winners qualified directly.
However since the introduction of the current 16 team A.I.C in 2023 the P.C link to the A.I.C has now been reduced to qualifiers for Division 4 teams[D4 is the only Division where a team can not qualify out of for A.I.C.] and Division 3 teams that do not finish in top 2 in that Division. Even winning or finishing 2nd in Division 3 is not a guarantee of a place in the A.I.C. as happened in 2023 when no Division 3 team qualified for the A.I.C. The ironic thing is that those teams that have qualified for the A.I.C through this route have been out of their dept and it may actually been better to have being competing in the Tailteann Cup.
Also a Division 1 team need not even need to play in their P.C in order to participate in the A.I.C
Over the last year or so I have posted a number of proposals on this forum for various formats for a revamped A.I.C[and/or overall Football Season] incorporating the 4 P.C.s as have numerous other forum users [two posters in particular]. All this has led me to reach the following conclusion- and that is in order to be able to organize a proper tiered Championship the 4 regional Championships need to be decoupled from the National Championship. These 4 regional championships vary greatly in numbers and in overall strength in dept.
Of course it looks like the P.C link is set to continue for the next while [years or even decade[s]] The P.C.s have a very important place in the Football calendar and even severing the link with the A.I.C will not change that.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 72 - 03/01/2025 21:14:40
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A currently strong province like Ulster is being rewarded with 4 out of 7 league qualifiers. 7 Ulster counties are likely to compete in the 2025 All Ireland series, with Down guaranteed through winning the Tailteann.
Provincial winners only qualifying is the only way to cut the nonsense of Clare beating Tipperary or Waterford and Sligo beating London or New York for a ridiculously easy route to the All-Ireland. Sligo 2023 and Clare 2024 would have been better off in the Tailteann.
If Kildare and Fermanagh make the Division 3 final this year, the loser will probably miss out on the All Ireland when Clare beat Waterford or Tipperary.
Is there any chance of Meath and/or Down and/or Kildare and/or Fermanagh bringing the required motion to Congress to stop this nonsense?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 03/01/2025 22:15:33
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Replying To Whammo86: "Ok I'm going to respectfully list a few things I don't like about your proposals.
It's a bit weird to include Provincial ties in the All Ireland with no pathway for tier 2 teams to win the All Ireland if they win their province.
I don't like the double elimination playoffs.
I don't really understand what's at stake beyond the quarterfinals of the shield or in the plate competition at all.
I don't know if the GAA public would really be receptive to a competition that doesn't share much dna of its traditional competitions.
I think option 2 is particularly bad, especially don't like that middle tier teams aren't actually playing one another at all throughout their regular season." Thanks for your opinion, Whammo - I do like to see where people have issues with it. I add a few more comments to points you made:
No path to AI Sam playoffs for Tier 2 Prov Champs (17-32) -
Yes, that's right - and you could expand to 9-32. Something had to give and I chose this. The alternative is to parachute Tier 2 Champs (and lower half Tier 1) into the AI Sam playoffs, but this would take from striving for league pts.
Double Elimination - While I state this as AFL-style, it's identical to the Liam McCarthy Cup 'last 8' as well - 2 'double elimination' Prov Finals and 2 KO AI PQF (the latter being less competitive than what football would have to offer). The 'top 4' gets a better reward and the exciting Sam run in gets two more top match billings.
Shield & Plate - What's at stake is simply those trophies. It's akin to winning the UEFA Europa and Conference Leagues - or should I say, McD, Ring, Rackard & Meagher Cups. Without 'going up' one league grade, Shield & Plate Champs can win Sam & Shield, respectively, the following year.
DNA - Traditional Prov SFCs (unchanged) and Leagues (albeit two grades, like in the past, in lieu of the current four) are retained. The Provs impact the League, and League placing determines the AIC competition a team enters.
It look like a modern structure seen in other sports (URC, AFL, NBA etc), and yet has some traditional DNA. Ulster SFC can keep its current status (maybe enhanced with match pts?), while Leinster could be stale, just like a low key league tie.
You could value a Prov title or not as you wish, just like the value of a Triple Crown, when concurrently failing to secure rugby's Six Nations Championship - is that Triple Crown still valuable, or a flat consolation? - I think we can come to our own conclusions, even when not aligning with others.
Option 2 - Groups are only a tool for scheduling and are intended to be balanced/mixed quality drawn from traditional seeding pots - e.g. say, ranked pots of 6-4-6, split as evenly as possible across three groups.
As all teams play a 10-of-15 partial round robin (or 12-of-15 in Option 1), what matters is fairness via 'each 10' (or 12) having a similar 'strength of schedule'.
So, there is no "middle tier" as you put it, as it relates to tier groups.
Given the partial round robin (or Swiss System, if you prefer), perhaps League Finals are warranted, given teams' different (although similar) match schedules - but one of my goals is to control 'total' match count.
Current match count of 11-15 is variable - League (7-8), Province (1-4) and AIC Group (3).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2966 - 03/01/2025 23:51:23
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Replying To legendzxix: "A currently strong province like Ulster is being rewarded with 4 out of 7 league qualifiers. 7 Ulster counties are likely to compete in the 2025 All Ireland series, with Down guaranteed through winning the Tailteann.
Provincial winners only qualifying is the only way to cut the nonsense of Clare beating Tipperary or Waterford and Sligo beating London or New York for a ridiculously easy route to the All-Ireland. Sligo 2023 and Clare 2024 would have been better off in the Tailteann.
If Kildare and Fermanagh make the Division 3 final this year, the loser will probably miss out on the All Ireland when Clare beat Waterford or Tipperary.
Is there any chance of Meath and/or Down and/or Kildare and/or Fermanagh bringing the required motion to Congress to stop this nonsense?" Hmmmm. Not a word about Kerry having a ridiculously easy run to the All Ireland EVERY year. Now that's something that could be looked at. Leave it as it is. So called weaker counties deserve a chance at the Sam Maguire. It's done wonders for Louth. Sligo were very close to beating Down in last year's Tailteann Cup.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6149 - 03/01/2025 23:58:10
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