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Replying To legendzxix: "Too convoluted. UEFA cares about money, ahem, I mean they care about football of course! ;-)" How convoluted?
Rd 1 - 12 teams (14th to 25th, one leg)
Rd 2 - 6 Rd 1 winners (one leg)
Rd of 16 - 3 Rd 2 winners plus top 13 (two legs)
QFs & SFs (two legs)
Final (neutral venue)
Same waiting time for top team byes.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 04/10/2024 13:36:35
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Major failing in the current proposal for 2026 is that a Provincial Finalist who beat 1 Div 4 team has the same status as an Ulster Champion who might have had to win 4 games v top teams.
It also further reduces the prestige of the Provincial Champions and Championships." With that scenario, my Swiss/URC-style League Championship would likely award 6-8 match pts to the Ulster Champ (for intra-tier wins) and likely 0 pts for that other team (if inter-tier win).
Onwards to the Playoffs, with the best teams advancing on merit from 12 games. But you know what, it's not needed because it makes too much sense.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 04/10/2024 13:45:53
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Replying To legendzxix: "I agree. There is a flip side though that an unseeded qualifier will be gaining an advantage.
Possibly under the current GAA preference, provincial winners should be guaranteed a home game in round 1. Provincial winners should also avoid each other in Round 2." What advantage - with the possibility of drawing any Prov Champ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 04/10/2024 13:49:01
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Replying To omahant: "With that scenario, my Swiss/URC-style League Championship would likely award 6-8 match pts to the Ulster Champ (for intra-tier wins) and likely 0 pts for that other team (if inter-tier win).
Onwards to the Playoffs, with the best teams advancing on merit from 12 games. But you know what, it's not needed because it makes too much sense." Your day dreaming systems won't be on the Congress Clár!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 04/10/2024 16:05:17
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Replying To omahant: "What advantage - with the possibility of drawing any Prov Champ?" If the 8 league qualifiers are seeded 3 and 4, with provincial winners drawn against Seed 4 and provincial runners-up drawn against Seed 3, 4 qualifiers are gaining a seeding advantage. The GAA seem to be taking the approach of no seeded advantage for qualifiers. The flip side is provincial champions taking on a tough opponent.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 04/10/2024 17:06:30
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Your day dreaming systems won't be on the Congress Clár!" You seem to be confident that was my goal. I wouldn't want to follow your horse race tips.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 05/10/2024 00:32:07
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Replying To omahant: "You seem to be confident that was my goal. I wouldn't want to follow your horse race tips." What is your goal?
To set up an alternate GAA??
Or get a job when you grow up?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 05/10/2024 12:28:29
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"Below, I offer my "twist" on the single-tier, 32-team "Pre-2018 SFC Qualifiers" to counter Provincial imbalance. This could be played concurrently with the Tailteann Cup, as lower-ranked teams drop out of Tier 1.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2856 - 07/11/2024 19:25:24"
https://hoganstand.com/Forum/FindPost?MessageID=2578850
omahant (USA),
Jarlath Burns seems intent on bringing in the old Christy Ring format. 8 provincial finalists will be drawn against 8 league qualifiers. Seems little wiggle room for change. He wants a blunt instrument.
The key detail I'd like to know is, will provincial champions be kept apart in Round 2?
Donegal win Ulster. Galway win Connacht. Both Donegal and Galway win in Round 1. Surely they avoid each other in Round 2A? Otherwise, where is any semblance of a reward for winning a provincial title?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 07/11/2024 22:02:09
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Replying To legendzxix: ""Below, I offer my "twist" on the single-tier, 32-team "Pre-2018 SFC Qualifiers" to counter Provincial imbalance. This could be played concurrently with the Tailteann Cup, as lower-ranked teams drop out of Tier 1. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2856 - 07/11/2024 19:25:24" https://hoganstand.com/Forum/FindPost?MessageID=2578850omahant (USA), Jarlath Burns seems intent on bringing in the old Christy Ring format. 8 provincial finalists will be drawn against 8 league qualifiers. Seems little wiggle room for change. He wants a blunt instrument. The key detail I'd like to know is, will provincial champions be kept apart in Round 2? Donegal win Ulster. Galway win Connacht. Both Donegal and Galway win in Round 1. Surely they avoid each other in Round 2A? Otherwise, where is any semblance of a reward for winning a provincial title?"
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 08/11/2024 10:47:20
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I agree Seanfanbocht. Why do some counties, admittedly including my own, have to win one game to qualify through a provincial final? By that token, every team in Leinster and Ulster have to win at least one game to make their semi-finals. Possibly Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists should qualify automatically to even that score? Otherwise provincial winners only. Regardless of seeding or not, all provinces can only produce one winner.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 08/11/2024 13:26:27
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Replying To legendzxix: "I agree Seanfanbocht. Why do some counties, admittedly including my own, have to win one game to qualify through a provincial final? By that token, every team in Leinster and Ulster have to win at least one game to make their semi-finals. Possibly Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists should qualify automatically to even that score? Otherwise provincial winners only. Regardless of seeding or not, all provinces can only produce one winner." I both agree and disagree Seanfanbocht.
As it is, ensures a good geographical spread of teams into the All Ireland and I think that is a good thing. We want it to be the All Ireland championship after-all. In the greater scheme of things if County #14 on the list or a Division 4 team that reached the provincial final are in the mix won't change the All Ireland winner.
Having said that I think you should have to win the provincial championship to get "promoted". I also think promotions should stick. i.e. if you win the Tailteann Cup and perform well in the championship the following year you should probably stay in the Sam Maguire competition.
Lets take an extreme example - 2024 Tailteann Cup winners Down get relegated this coming year after a very competitive Division 2 where everyone is getting used to the new rules. They pick themselves up and get on track in the championship and reach the Final where they're beaten by Kerry after a replay. The following year they take this momentum back to Division 3 and sail through to promotion only to be "relegated" to the Tailteann cup when Sligo beat Leitrim in the Connaught semi-final and they loose out to Armagh on penalties in the Ulster Semi.
Using the league to seed the Sam Maguire completion was only a good idea for one year - the prior year championship rankings should be used for every following year.
My preference without too much change - the top 3 in each group stay in Sam - meaning 12 teams are guaranteed the following year. The remaining 4 spots are filled by the Tailteann Cup winner, Provincial Championship winners (and runners up if we want), followed by next best league position as needed - with league position sorting out any unlikely ties.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 354 - 08/11/2024 15:04:45
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Replying To brianb: "I both agree and disagree Seanfanbocht.
As it is, ensures a good geographical spread of teams into the All Ireland and I think that is a good thing. We want it to be the All Ireland championship after-all. In the greater scheme of things if County #14 on the list or a Division 4 team that reached the provincial final are in the mix won't change the All Ireland winner.
Having said that I think you should have to win the provincial championship to get "promoted". I also think promotions should stick. i.e. if you win the Tailteann Cup and perform well in the championship the following year you should probably stay in the Sam Maguire competition.
Lets take an extreme example - 2024 Tailteann Cup winners Down get relegated this coming year after a very competitive Division 2 where everyone is getting used to the new rules. They pick themselves up and get on track in the championship and reach the Final where they're beaten by Kerry after a replay. The following year they take this momentum back to Division 3 and sail through to promotion only to be "relegated" to the Tailteann cup when Sligo beat Leitrim in the Connaught semi-final and they loose out to Armagh on penalties in the Ulster Semi.
Using the league to seed the Sam Maguire completion was only a good idea for one year - the prior year championship rankings should be used for every following year.
My preference without too much change - the top 3 in each group stay in Sam - meaning 12 teams are guaranteed the following year. The remaining 4 spots are filled by the Tailteann Cup winner, Provincial Championship winners (and runners up if we want), followed by next best league position as needed - with league position sorting out any unlikely ties." You are on to something there about the top 3 in each group remaining in the Sam Maguire the following year. The tricky part is that 4 provincial winners and the Tailteann winner need to be accounted for. 17 into 16 doesn't go.
Briefly: 4 groups of 5 teams might be better. 2 home and 2 away games. 2nd and 3rd going to preliminary quarter-finals from groups of 5 is perfectly fine. Just see the Munster hurling round robin format.
If the top 3 from each group are guaranteed Sam Maguire in the following year, 4th and 5th teams need to be ranked 13 to 20.
Option A: Rank counties 13 to 20 on group stage performance.
Option B: Playoffs where 4th placed teams playoff to be ranked 13 to 16 and 5th placed teams playoff to be ranked 17 to 20.
Either way, team 20 will be replaced by the Tailteann winner. 16 to 19 in that order will have to sweat on a dark horse winning their provincial championship in the following year.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 08/11/2024 17:20:02
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Replying To legendzxix: "I agree Seanfanbocht. Why do some counties, admittedly including my own, have to win one game to qualify through a provincial final? By that token, every team in Leinster and Ulster have to win at least one game to make their semi-finals. Possibly Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists should qualify automatically to even that score? Otherwise provincial winners only. Regardless of seeding or not, all provinces can only produce one winner." Thanks for re-posting my "Pre-2018 twist" above.
In my "twist", after Provincial QFs (win, lose or bye) and Qualifying Rd 1 (win, lose or n/a), any of the 32 teams needs to win 6 subsequent rounds to win an AIC title:
Prov SF or Qual Rd 2;
Prov F or Qual Rd 3;
Champs Playoff or Qual Rd 4;
AIC QF
SF
F.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 08/11/2024 20:19:48
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Replying To brianb: "I both agree and disagree Seanfanbocht.
As it is, ensures a good geographical spread of teams into the All Ireland and I think that is a good thing. We want it to be the All Ireland championship after-all. In the greater scheme of things if County #14 on the list or a Division 4 team that reached the provincial final are in the mix won't change the All Ireland winner.
Having said that I think you should have to win the provincial championship to get "promoted". I also think promotions should stick. i.e. if you win the Tailteann Cup and perform well in the championship the following year you should probably stay in the Sam Maguire competition.
Lets take an extreme example - 2024 Tailteann Cup winners Down get relegated this coming year after a very competitive Division 2 where everyone is getting used to the new rules. They pick themselves up and get on track in the championship and reach the Final where they're beaten by Kerry after a replay. The following year they take this momentum back to Division 3 and sail through to promotion only to be "relegated" to the Tailteann cup when Sligo beat Leitrim in the Connaught semi-final and they loose out to Armagh on penalties in the Ulster Semi.
Using the league to seed the Sam Maguire completion was only a good idea for one year - the prior year championship rankings should be used for every following year.
My preference without too much change - the top 3 in each group stay in Sam - meaning 12 teams are guaranteed the following year. The remaining 4 spots are filled by the Tailteann Cup winner, Provincial Championship winners (and runners up if we want), followed by next best league position as needed - with league position sorting out any unlikely ties." Makes a lot of sense - portion repeated:
"My preference without too much change - the top 3 in each group stay in Sam - meaning 12 teams are guaranteed the following year. The remaining 4 spots are filled by the Tailteann Cup winner, Provincial Championship winners (and runners up if we want), followed by next best league position as needed - with league position sorting out any unlikely ties."
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 08/11/2024 20:23:14
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Replying To legendzxix: "You are on to something there about the top 3 in each group remaining in the Sam Maguire the following year. The tricky part is that 4 provincial winners and the Tailteann winner need to be accounted for. 17 into 16 doesn't go.
Briefly: 4 groups of 5 teams might be better. 2 home and 2 away games. 2nd and 3rd going to preliminary quarter-finals from groups of 5 is perfectly fine. Just see the Munster hurling round robin format.
If the top 3 from each group are guaranteed Sam Maguire in the following year, 4th and 5th teams need to be ranked 13 to 20.
Option A: Rank counties 13 to 20 on group stage performance.
Option B: Playoffs where 4th placed teams playoff to be ranked 13 to 16 and 5th placed teams playoff to be ranked 17 to 20.
Either way, team 20 will be replaced by the Tailteann winner. 16 to 19 in that order will have to sweat on a dark horse winning their provincial championship in the following year." GAA can't cope with Inter County SFC having groups!!
All other GAA/LGFA/Camogie competitions at Club, County and underage can !
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 08/11/2024 20:30:08
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Replying To legendzxix: "You are on to something there about the top 3 in each group remaining in the Sam Maguire the following year. The tricky part is that 4 provincial winners and the Tailteann winner need to be accounted for. 17 into 16 doesn't go.
Briefly: 4 groups of 5 teams might be better. 2 home and 2 away games. 2nd and 3rd going to preliminary quarter-finals from groups of 5 is perfectly fine. Just see the Munster hurling round robin format.
If the top 3 from each group are guaranteed Sam Maguire in the following year, 4th and 5th teams need to be ranked 13 to 20.
Option A: Rank counties 13 to 20 on group stage performance.
Option B: Playoffs where 4th placed teams playoff to be ranked 13 to 16 and 5th placed teams playoff to be ranked 17 to 20.
Either way, team 20 will be replaced by the Tailteann winner. 16 to 19 in that order will have to sweat on a dark horse winning their provincial championship in the following year." I think Brian's idea is crisper - to the extent, I understand it - next year's AI Sam 16 field is derived from the following ranked waterfall:
- Prior Yr Top 3 in each of 4 AIC groups (12 berths)
- Prior Year Tailteann Cup Champ (13th berth)
- Prior Year Provincial Champs [maybe 14th-17th berths, but most likely less, as many have qualified via 'Top 3s' (say, only 14th berth is filled)]
- Prior Year Prov Losing Finalists (as these are now ranked 15th-17th, prior year league ranking among the three determines which two earn the remaining berths).
Question for Brian - do I have that right? - e.g. "current year" Prov Champs are only playing for a "next year" AIC berth, so the "AIC Sam 16" are all known at the start of the season based on "prior year" performance?
Separately, with Top 3s having relevance for retention of future Sam berths, the Prelim QFs could be disbanded - straight to KO QFs instead.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 08/11/2024 21:17:51
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "GAA can't cope with Inter County SFC having groups!!
All other GAA/LGFA/Camogie competitions at Club, County and underage can !" The jeopardy of relegation goes well with group stages.
Lopsided provincial draws are damaging the provincial championships. Sligo would have had the respect of their own people in making the Connacht final by beating Galway this year. A late goal denied them. It might have been nice making the 2023 Connacht final by beating London and New York but it didn't really bring the respect of their own people. The current day value of making a provincial final has been cheapened.
With the preseason competitions gone, all counties have the traditional 7 league games at a fair level to grow into a season. League ranking 1 to 32 could be used for balanced provincial draws.
With the Tailteann Cup in place, if a lower league county misses out on their provincial final, they have a competition at a fair level to compete for. Westmeath had national respect for qualifying for the All-Ireland though winning the Tailteann.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 10/11/2024 08:54:30
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Replying To legendzxix: "The jeopardy of relegation goes well with group stages.
Lopsided provincial draws are damaging the provincial championships. Sligo would have had the respect of their own people in making the Connacht final by beating Galway this year. A late goal denied them. It might have been nice making the 2023 Connacht final by beating London and New York but it didn't really bring the respect of their own people. The current day value of making a provincial final has been cheapened.
With the preseason competitions gone, all counties have the traditional 7 league games at a fair level to grow into a season. League ranking 1 to 32 could be used for balanced provincial draws.
With the Tailteann Cup in place, if a lower league county misses out on their provincial final, they have a competition at a fair level to compete for. Westmeath had national respect for qualifying for the All-Ireland though winning the Tailteann." My preferred idea is a 12-game league, with Prov KO earning match pts when doubling as league ties and AIC group stage scrapped.
Teams placed 1-28 (bottom 4 out) advance to 3 graded KO AIC - top 8 to Sam; next 12, 9-20 to AI Shield; and next 8, 21-28 to AI Plate. Teams placed 1 & 17 automatically win League 1 & 2, respectively.
Initially, two tiers of 16, with teams playing 12 of 15 incomplete tier round robin - 4 groups of 4 drawn, teams avoid own group (so none contains a Prov tie) and play the other 12. 'Shield QF 8' earn or retain 16-team Tier 1 league status for the following year.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 10/11/2024 18:33:30
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Inter-county player absences from clubs a betrayal of GAA values according to former Dublin footballer Dr Noel McCaffrey on RTE. He has something of a fair point.
I've said it before. County leagues proceed without intercounty players. Possibly the provincial club and All-Ireland club series can run in parallel with some of the Allianz Leagues? This way the intercounty league proceed without some club players.
Some disagree but I think county championships can run from mid September to mid December. After a Christmas break, the provincial club championships can begin. The All-Ireland club series can potentially run up to the traditional St. Patrick's Day.
If intercounty players have Christmas and January off, the Allianz Leagues can start around early March, with the All-Ireland finals in early September.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 10/11/2024 21:06:16
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Replying To legendzxix: "Inter-county player absences from clubs a betrayal of GAA values according to former Dublin footballer Dr Noel McCaffrey on RTE. He has something of a fair point.
I've said it before. County leagues proceed without intercounty players. Possibly the provincial club and All-Ireland club series can run in parallel with some of the Allianz Leagues? This way the intercounty league proceed without some club players.
Some disagree but I think county championships can run from mid September to mid December. After a Christmas break, the provincial club championships can begin. The All-Ireland club series can potentially run up to the traditional St. Patrick's Day.
If intercounty players have Christmas and January off, the Allianz Leagues can start around early March, with the All-Ireland finals in early September." One of his points is to have four windows - 1) inter-county league; 2) 4-week club championships; 3) 13-week inter-county AIC; and 4) 6-week club Prov & AIC.
He says inter-county players should play more than four games with their clubs. In my opinion, as inter-county players are playing too many combined matches, perhaps the inter-county footprint needs to be reduced.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 10/11/2024 23:54:17
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