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Replying To systematic: "The biggest issue with that is that the 3rd best team in Connacht (and probably the 3rd best team in Munster too) is better than the 3 goobers in Leinster that get hockeyed the least by the dubs. Not to mention that the standard of the group without the dubs will be dismal." It'll be good competition for places though in Connacht. A big battle for the top two. Cork and Clare from recent years would be battling for top two in Munster. Ulster of course would be fiercely competitive.
Counties missing out on the top 2 could be given the consolation reward of two home games in the following year. It might mean Dublin travelling to two of their weak provincial soft challengers.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 10/07/2024 21:22:28
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Hurling has been operating a provincial round robin[R.R] structure for a number of years now and underage inter county football and hurling has also now gone down the same route. So in looking to incorporate a provincial R.R structure into the the football landscape the following was formulated by A.I
It involves moving from the current National League [N.L] format of 4 Divisions of 8 to a single 32 team N.L
[Which is sub divided into a top 16 and a bottom 16 based on the previous years end of seasons rankings--[1--32]
The 32 team N.L has built in [incorporates] 4 Provincial R.R. Championships. Single R.R in Ulster[U] Munster[M]
Connacht[C] and 2 R.R groups in Leinster[L] [6+5]
The Provincial R.R games in each province count as follows------
[1] in the 32 team N.L
[2] in separate [from the N.L] 4 Provincial R.R. Championships
Each team has a 12 game guaranteed N.L [incorporating P.C. ] regular season schedule.
This is followed by Provincial semi finals in [U+ L] and finals in[ U+L+M+C]
Followed by 3 Championship tiers[based on final N.L Table] 12--12--8 [+ New York]------Straight knock out.
Ulster------ 8 P.C [incorporating N.L] games + 4 N.L only games
Munster------5 P.C [incorporating N.L] games + 7 N.L only games
Connacht------ 5 P.C [incorporating N.L.] games + 7 N.L only games.
Leinster[6]------ 5 P.C.[incorporating N.L]. games + 7 N.L only games.
Leinster[5] ------ 4 P.C.[incorporating N.L.] games + 8 N.L. only games
Breakdown round by round [R1 --R12]
Top 16/ Top 12 and Bottom 16/12 based on previous years rankings [1--32]
ROUND 1------ 8 N.L fixtures [Top 16]
8 N.L . fixtures [ Bottom 16]
ROUND 2 ------ 8 N.L fixtures [Top 16]
8 N.L fixtures [ Bottom 16]
ROUND 3 ------ 16 N.L fixtures [Bottom 16 host Top 16]
NOTE------ In the upcoming R4 R5 R6 R7 in the Ulster Championship [U.C. R1 R2 R3 R4] ---the bye teams in those first 4
rounds are the top 4 ranked sides in Ulster.
------ In R4 R5 R7--THE L/M/C BIG 4 [Dublin Kerry Mayo and Galway] meet in 5 designated fixtures.
ROUND 4------ Ulster Championship R1
6 N.L. fixtures [L/M/C + Ulster bye team] [Top 12] inc. Dublin/Kerry v Mayo/Galway]
6 N.L fixtures [L/M/C] [Bottom 12]
ROUND 5 ------ Ulster Championship R2
6 N.L fixtures [L/M/C + Ulster bye team ][Top 12] inc. Mayo/Galway v Dublin/Kerry.
6 N.L fixtures [L/M/C] [Bottom 12]
ROUND 6 ------ Ulster Championship R3
12 N.L fixtures [L/M/C + Ulster bye team] Bottom 12 host Top 12]
ROUND 7 ------ Ulster Championship R4
6 N.L. fixtures [L/M/C +Ulster bye team] [Top 12] inc. Dublin v Kerry
6 N.L fixtures[ L/M/C] [Bottom 12]
ROUND 8 ------ Ulster Championship R5
Leinster Championship R1
Munster Championship R1
Connacht Championship R1
U bye team v L bye team [N.L]
ROUND 9 ------ Ulster Championship R6
Leinster Championship R2
Munster Championship R2
Connacht Championship R2
U bye team v L bye team [N.L]
ROUND 10 ------Ulster Championship R7
Leinster Championship R3
Munster Championship R3
Connacht Championship R3
U bye team v L bye team [N.L]
ROUND 11 ------ Ulster Championship R8
Leinster Championship R4
Munster Championship R4
Connacht Championship R5
U bye team v L bye team [N.L]
ROUND 12 ------ Ulster Championship R9
Leinster Championship R5
Munster Championship R5
Connacht Championship R5
U bye team L bye team[N.L]
After the completion of the 12 rounds the team finishing at the top of the 32 team table are N.L. Champions.
Each of the 32 teams play just 12 out of 31 opponents. This will inevitably lead to lots of teams finishing on the same number of points. Rather than using scoring difference a fairer way to separate teams finishing on equal points would be to use the opponents strength index. This is done by adding together the ranking score of each of the 12 opponents played [previous years end of season ranking 1--32]. Obviously the lower the score the better.
AFTER N.L------ From the separate Provincial Championship Tables
Ulster------ Semi Finals [Top 4 ] and Final.
Leinster------ Semi Finals [Top 2 in each group] and Final.
Munster------ Final[ Top 2].
Connacht------ Final [Top 2].
AFTER P.C.------ FROM 32 TEAM N.L TABLE----- 3 TIERED ALL IRELAND CHAMPIONSHIP 12+12+9[includes New York]
TIER 1 TIER 2 TIER 3
A.I.C [SAM MAGUIRE CUP] TAILTEANN CUP
1---4 Q.F 13---16 Q.F [H] 25--28 Q.F [H]
5 ---8 P.Q.F [H 17--20 P.Q.F [H] 29-- 31 Q.F[ A]
9-- 12 P.Q.F [A] 21--24 P.Q.F [A] 32 P.Q.F [A] V New York
[Subject to that team not having played
N.Y in previous 3 years. If that is the case
move up the table to get N.Y opponent].
The Tailteann Cup winner from the previous year must finish in the top 16 of the N.L in order to be eligible for the A.I.C.
Finishing 13--16 will move T,C. Winner up to 12 place [P.Q.F][A] and 12 will move down to T.C [P.Q.F][H]
Tier 3 winner from previous year has a guaranteed place in T.C at a minimum place of 24 Q.F [A]
They may of course finish in a higher position.
The maximum number of games a team could play under this structure is 18 [12 N.L [incorporating P.C .R.R]
2 Provincial K.O and 4 in The Championship. The minimum number is 13
SUMMARY
A balanced overall structure with no big gaps between games[of 5/6 weeks which some teams experience currently]
The addition of a Third Tier [With S.F and Finals in Croke Park].This would make up some what for losing the current
League Finals in Croke Park for the lesser teams.
Bottom 16 teams mostly have 7 Home games/ 5 Away games in N.L[ Few have 6/6]
Top 16 teams mostly have 5 Home games/ 7 Away games in N.L. [Few have 6/6]
Increased revenue for Provincial councils .e.g Ulster goes from 8 games currently to 39 games
The addition of 2 rounds[R3 +R6] in the N.L where the Bottom 16/12 get to host the Top 16/12. These rounds would throw up fixtures that rarely or never occur.
The A.I.C [Sam Maguire] is open to all 32 teams through the N.L . but more importantly no team has a guaranteed place.
There is no added benefit in N.L table to winning a Provincial Title. Originally there were a number of options open to rewarding the 4 Provincial Champions but in the end it was decided against as it would be benefiting certain high profile teams that certainly do not need any type of extra benefit which has been on offer to them through out all the various structures over the years[in particular during the qualifier era].Anyways under this structure teams have to do well in their respective R.R Provincial Championships in order to qualify for a Top 12 [or top 11] position and a place in the A.I.C.
The 4 semi finalists in the T.C are in the following years Top 16 [Ranked 12-16]
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 62 - 11/07/2024 09:53:15
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Replying To legendzxix: "It'll be good competition for places though in Connacht. A big battle for the top two. Cork and Clare from recent years would be battling for top two in Munster. Ulster of course would be fiercely competitive.
Counties missing out on the top 2 could be given the consolation reward of two home games in the following year. It might mean Dublin travelling to two of their weak provincial soft challengers." I really don't like this at all.
I think it misses the point of why group stages work in hurling. There are only 11 teams divided and the field is split into 2. 9 of the 11 teams have a reasonable shot at making it far in the championship.
This would entrench the structural inequality presented by organising on a Provincial level without bringing any of the benefits of group stages facilitating the better teams playing one another more regularly.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 11/07/2024 10:34:28
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Replying To Whammo86: "I really don't like this at all.
I think it misses the point of why group stages work in hurling. There are only 11 teams divided and the field is split into 2. 9 of the 11 teams have a reasonable shot at making it far in the championship.
This would entrench the structural inequality presented by organising on a Provincial level without bringing any of the benefits of group stages facilitating the better teams playing one another more regularly." One criticism of provincial championships is the imbalance of numbers. A fair approach to that can the the top third of counties from each province qualifying for the All-Ireland series. That works out as 2 of 6 Munster, 2 of 6 Connacht plus London, 3 of 9 Ulster and 4 of 11 Leinster.
From my provincial tiered structure, the Ulster semi-finalists can playoff for the third Ulster spot. The Tailteann Cup winner could also be allocated an All-Ireland preliminary quarter-finals spot.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 11/07/2024 12:44:18
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@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 56 - 11/07/2024 09:53:15
Your idea overlaps quite a bit with mine below. One clear difference is that I wish to avoid "bottom 16 v top 16" as much as possible (exception being a handful of ProvCh ties that can't 'double up' into the league/regular season).
What do you think of the below?
In football, I suggest 12 matches per team in each of two 16-team AILC Tiers (1 & 2) - each modelled on rugby's URC 'four groups of four' 18-match schedule, less the six intra-group ties - with all Provincial SFC intra-tier results "doubling up" for inclusion in the 12-match set (similar to the incorporation of six Triple Crown ties in Rugby Union's "Six Nations Championship").
Upon conclusion of 'early-season' Provincial SFC QFs, AILC groups could be drawn - each formed with one team from each of four seeding pots - and as "intra-group" teams are avoided, each Provincial Preliminary Rd, QF, SF or Final tie is split across two groups. To respect their traditional status, Provincial SFs & Finals could be held over for mid- and late-season scheduling, respectively.
After the 12-match regular season, the Tier 1 'top 8 of 16' in the table advance to an Aussie AFL-style "AIC Series" (top 4 to 'double chance' Preliminary SFs, '2nd 4' to KO Preliminary QFs).
Provincial Champions placed outside the 'top 8' do not advance to the AIC Series, but based on their table positions, could participate in the AI Shield or AI Plate instead (described below).
The 'Tier 1 bottom 8 of 16' and 'Tier 2 top 4 of 16' merge to compete in a '12-team KO' for the "AI Shield" (four Preliminary QF losers go or stay down, QF 8 go or stay up).
The 'Tier 2 middle 8 of 16' compete in an '8-team KO' for the "AI Plate" (or "Tailteann Cup", all 8 stay down).
I believe a 'URC-like' structure with Provincial Championships embedded to curtail match count, would create a 'fair, balanced & exciting' competition, provide sufficient room for the inter-county season "to breathe" and mitigate political risk given retention of the regional competitions.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 11/07/2024 13:16:56
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I see that dose Spillane comparing kerry v derry to father Ted over 75s match, he should look back at some his own games, 1980 all ireland final was a very poor game, centenary final wouldn't have put the pulse racing..and many of the semi finals were drab affairs. The football rules need one or 2 tweaks, mainly around the tackle I would suggest. Needs to be more clearly defined to ensure consistency, and more protection for the player in possession.
totalrecall (Leitrim) - Posts: 994 - 11/07/2024 14:07:40
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Replying To legendzxix: "One criticism of provincial championships is the imbalance of numbers. A fair approach to that can the the top third of counties from each province qualifying for the All-Ireland series. That works out as 2 of 6 Munster, 2 of 6 Connacht plus London, 3 of 9 Ulster and 4 of 11 Leinster.
From my provincial tiered structure, the Ulster semi-finalists can playoff for the third Ulster spot. The Tailteann Cup winner could also be allocated an All-Ireland preliminary quarter-finals spot." It's not just numbers, it's actually less about numbers and more about average quality.
The direction of travel needs to be decreasing the amount of influence the Provincials have on the overall All Ireland series.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 11/07/2024 14:11:05
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's not just numbers, it's actually less about numbers and more about average quality.
The direction of travel needs to be decreasing the amount of influence the Provincials have on the overall All Ireland series." Mine tries to strike a balance with Prov Chps baked in.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 11/07/2024 14:26:19
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Replying To totalrecall: "I see that dose Spillane comparing kerry v derry to father Ted over 75s match, he should look back at some his own games, 1980 all ireland final was a very poor game, centenary final wouldn't have put the pulse racing..and many of the semi finals were drab affairs. The football rules need one or 2 tweaks, mainly around the tackle I would suggest. Needs to be more clearly defined to ensure consistency, and more protection for the player in possession." Should be less protection for the player in possession!
Possession is the cause of all the borefests.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 11/07/2024 14:47:47
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The best system in my view is one that is similar to the Laois football championship. There are 16 teams in it so it can be applied to both Sam McGuire and Tailtain cups.
Rd1 - Open draw - 8 matches
Rd2 - Winners section ( 4 matches) Losers section (4 Matches)
Rd3 - Losers of Rd 2 Winners section v Winners Rd2 Loser sections
1/4 Finals - Rd2 winners section winners v Round 3 winners
Semi Finals
Finals
Advantages
1) All teams treated equally
2) All matches have meaning , eliminates meaningless games- Round 1 has meaning as teams don't want to end up in losers section.
3) Scope to space matches - Min of 5 matches to win Sam , Max of 6 matches
4) Lose two games and you are gone.
How would Calendar look? 2024 example
I would have have All-Ireland Football Final in September 8th
All-Ireland hurling final- Aug 25th
All Ireland Football Final Aug 18th
All Ireland Hurling Semi Final Aug 11th
All Ireland Football 1/4 Finals - Aug 4th
All Ireland Hurling 1/4 Finals - July 28th
Football Round 3 and Hurling Plim 1/4 Finals - July 21st
Football Round 2- July 14th
Hurling Provincial Finals - July 7th / Joe Mac Final
Football Round 1 - June 30th
I know that theres no gap between between Rd2 and Rd3 or plim 1/4 and 1/4 in hurling but if you win your games in football that wont matter and in hurling , winning momentum is good playing a team who has just lost a provincial finals.
For those in favour of split season- Start your championship in August as is presently done. Adjust if reach an all ireland Semi final.
Fact - In 2016, Kilkenny reached All -Ireland Hurling Final and played Club Final on October Bank Hol Sunday.
2023 - Kilkenny reach All Ireland hurling final , played in mid July and yet their club final is on the Sunday before the Oct Bank Hol- Why condense the intercounty season yet the club season is still the same?? America ???? The point I am making is that it's important that intercounty Gaelic Games is on during the summer months when rugby and soccer are on their off season to help promote the games among the youth. Its bull**** about 1000s of club games on as there isn't a single county at the moment that has started their senior club championship. (Exception Kilkenny football championship). America springs to mind again. I'm actually not in favour of more inter county games as I believe the product is so diluted it takes the excitement of a shock result out and favours the strong counties, people are voting with their feet and picking and choosing their games , while the neutral is non- existent these days at games which is sad to see.
Ben (None) - Posts: 104 - 11/07/2024 15:30:49
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's not just numbers, it's actually less about numbers and more about average quality.
The direction of travel needs to be decreasing the amount of influence the Provincials have on the overall All Ireland series." Connacht and Ulster should do well from a provincial round robin. Cork and Clare would have a good battle. While Leinster is poor the likes of Louth, Westmeath, Meath, Kildare and Laois should have a competitive enough challenge for making the top two.
It is all well and good wanting to decrease the influence of provincials but is the alternative going to bring big crowds?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 11/07/2024 17:18:09
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Replying To Ben: "The best system in my view is one that is similar to the Laois football championship. There are 16 teams in it so it can be applied to both Sam McGuire and Tailtain cups.
Rd1 - Open draw - 8 matches
Rd2 - Winners section ( 4 matches) Losers section (4 Matches)
Rd3 - Losers of Rd 2 Winners section v Winners Rd2 Loser sections
1/4 Finals - Rd2 winners section winners v Round 3 winners
Semi Finals
Finals
Advantages
1) All teams treated equally
2) All matches have meaning , eliminates meaningless games- Round 1 has meaning as teams don't want to end up in losers section.
3) Scope to space matches - Min of 5 matches to win Sam , Max of 6 matches
4) Lose two games and you are gone.
How would Calendar look? 2024 example
I would have have All-Ireland Football Final in September 8th
All-Ireland hurling final- Aug 25th
All Ireland Football Final Aug 18th
All Ireland Hurling Semi Final Aug 11th
All Ireland Football 1/4 Finals - Aug 4th
All Ireland Hurling 1/4 Finals - July 28th
Football Round 3 and Hurling Plim 1/4 Finals - July 21st
Football Round 2- July 14th
Hurling Provincial Finals - July 7th / Joe Mac Final
Football Round 1 - June 30th
I know that theres no gap between between Rd2 and Rd3 or plim 1/4 and 1/4 in hurling but if you win your games in football that wont matter and in hurling , winning momentum is good playing a team who has just lost a provincial finals.
For those in favour of split season- Start your championship in August as is presently done. Adjust if reach an all ireland Semi final.
Fact - In 2016, Kilkenny reached All -Ireland Hurling Final and played Club Final on October Bank Hol Sunday.
2023 - Kilkenny reach All Ireland hurling final , played in mid July and yet their club final is on the Sunday before the Oct Bank Hol- Why condense the intercounty season yet the club season is still the same?? America ???? The point I am making is that it's important that intercounty Gaelic Games is on during the summer months when rugby and soccer are on their off season to help promote the games among the youth. Its bull**** about 1000s of club games on as there isn't a single county at the moment that has started their senior club championship. (Exception Kilkenny football championship). America springs to mind again. I'm actually not in favour of more inter county games as I believe the product is so diluted it takes the excitement of a shock result out and favours the strong counties, people are voting with their feet and picking and choosing their games , while the neutral is non- existent these days at games which is sad to see." Isn't that Option 1 of the CCCC proposals.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 11/07/2024 18:38:27
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Replying To legendzxix: "Connacht and Ulster should do well from a provincial round robin. Cork and Clare would have a good battle. While Leinster is poor the likes of Louth, Westmeath, Meath, Kildare and Laois should have a competitive enough challenge for making the top two.
It is all well and good wanting to decrease the influence of provincials but is the alternative going to bring big crowds?" 29 Provincials drew c 275k
23 AI group games drew c 175k (Tyrone v Cork not included as it was double header).
Provincial Council Secretaries have a lot of influence so ye can take it the Provincials are going nowhere.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1952 - 11/07/2024 18:42:05
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RE: 32 Team N.L [Incorporating Provincial R.R Championships]
AFTER P.C ------FROM 32 TEAM N.L TABLE---- 3 TIERED ALL IRELAND CHAMPIONSHIPS 12+12+9 [inc. New York]
TIER 1
[A.I.C] SAM MAGUIRE CUP
1---4 Q.F
5--- 8 P.Q.F. [H]
9--12 P.Q.F. [A]
TIER 2
TAILTEANN CUP
13---16 Q.F [H]
17---20 P.Q.F [H]
21---24 P.Q.F. [A]
TIER 3
25---28 Q.F.[H]
29---31 Q.F [A]
32 P.Q.F [A] V New York
[Subject to that team not having played N.Y in previous 3 years. If that is the case move up the table to find N.Y opponent. This stipulation is required to avoid maybe the same 1 or 2 teams that would finish bottom of the N.L travelling to play N.Y.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 62 - 11/07/2024 19:09:14
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Isn't that Option 1 of the CCCC proposals.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1677 - 11/07/2024 18:38:27 2558431
Yes, indeed - with the caveat that Rd 1 is seeded, not open.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 11/07/2024 20:08:55
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Replying To legendzxix: "Connacht and Ulster should do well from a provincial round robin. Cork and Clare would have a good battle. While Leinster is poor the likes of Louth, Westmeath, Meath, Kildare and Laois should have a competitive enough challenge for making the top two.
It is all well and good wanting to decrease the influence of provincials but is the alternative going to bring big crowds?" Well you can the Provincials but have a better system around them. 2 easy ways.
The one where 16 teams play in round 1 (lowest 16 ranked non Provincial finalists)
8 teams get a bye to round 2
8 other teams get a bye to round 3, the last 16 (provincial champions plus 4 best others from the league).
Provincial champions are only getting to the last 16, Provincial finalists only getting to the last 24, unless they are a top performing league team.
You could have an All Ireland with 2 groups of 8 with the Provincial champions only qualifying plus then the Previous season's tier 2 champions and 11 other best from the Previous season's tier 1 championship. The National league would need to be altered for this but I'd say it's more important to get the All Ireland right.
I don't think groups of 8 would be worse than groups of 4, the field would be split in 2 only so you'd get more matches between the closely matched teams.
Groups of 4 are really bad in the GAA where there aren't draws so too easy for the top 2 to be determined after 2 rounds of matches.
Teams out of the running need to perform to not lose their spot in the following season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 11/07/2024 20:52:59
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "29 Provincials drew c 275k
23 AI group games drew c 175k (Tyrone v Cork not included as it was double header).
Provincial Council Secretaries have a lot of influence so ye can take it the Provincials are going nowhere." Exactly.
CONNACHT
Galway
Mayo
Roscommon
Sligo
Top two only after round robin to Connacht final and All-Ireland series. It'll be a tough battle. The Munster hurling championship has shown that a competitive round robin with jeopardy will get support.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 11/07/2024 21:26:32
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Muns SHC with any 3 of 5 going through seems to be ideal - but given the competitive nature of it, I suppose.
I think the AIC SFC would work better with that - 3 groups of 5 prior to KO QFs (best two 3rds included) - it would take 6 weeks to run off though, given the bye team in each round and maybe the 3rd rd might need to be spread over two weekends to give teams a breather.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 11/07/2024 23:12:27
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Replying To legendzxix: "Connacht and Ulster should do well from a provincial round robin. Cork and Clare would have a good battle. While Leinster is poor the likes of Louth, Westmeath, Meath, Kildare and Laois should have a competitive enough challenge for making the top two.
It is all well and good wanting to decrease the influence of provincials but is the alternative going to bring big crowds?" Meath who have the worst score difference in the sam group stages this year? Or Laois who should have been beaten by New York? Or Kildare who actually were beaten by Laois?
Westmeath also didn't win a game in Sam this year!
What have Leinster teams done to deserve 4 spots in your system? When is the last time a non-dubs Leinster team got to semi final in last 15 years? Meath 2010? Football in Leinster is at a terrible standard - more places in Sam will not help it will just killed the game in Roscommon Clare and Monaghan.
systematic (Galway) - Posts: 119 - 12/07/2024 10:17:12
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Replying To systematic: "Meath who have the worst score difference in the sam group stages this year? Or Laois who should have been beaten by New York? Or Kildare who actually were beaten by Laois?
Westmeath also didn't win a game in Sam this year!
What have Leinster teams done to deserve 4 spots in your system? When is the last time a non-dubs Leinster team got to semi final in last 15 years? Meath 2010? Football in Leinster is at a terrible standard - more places in Sam will not help it will just killed the game in Roscommon Clare and Monaghan." Basically 4 of 11 is the top third of places available in Leinster. The top third across all provinces is the only way to solve the imbalance of numbers.
Connacht plus London 2 of 6.
Munster 2 of 6.
Ulster 3 of 9.
Leinster 4 of 11.
Tailteann winner 1 of the remainder.
12 teams in total.
ALL-IRELAND PRELIMINARY QUARTER-FINALS
4 provincial runners-up versus 4 non-finalists.
ALL-IRELAND QUARTER-FINALS
4 provincial winners versus 4 Pre-QF winners.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 12/07/2024 10:36:23
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