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Also with 16 groups of 3, it would take 48 games to reduce it to the last 32. Now with 12 groups of 4, it's going to take 72 group games to reduce it to the last 32. 72 games to eliminate 16 teams !!
Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 90 - 07/07/2024 19:03:22
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Replying To Rebel2020: "Also with 16 groups of 3, it would take 48 games to reduce it to the last 32. Now with 12 groups of 4, it's going to take 72 group games to reduce it to the last 32. 72 games to eliminate 16 teams !!" FIFA's solution to the extra games is less preparation time from the end of club season to the start of the tournaments!
Getting back to GAELIC FOOTBALL format changes, the qualifiers should return. League qualification is an extreme. Using league for balanced qualifiers brings back knockout football. Maybe two qualifying round is enough?
2024 example: 24 teams for 7 places. (8 provincial finalists and Meath already qualified.)
QUALIFIER ROUND 1
20 teams reduced to 10. 4 byes to Q2 based on league ranking.
QUALIFIER ROUND 2
14 teams for 7 places.
17 additional knockout games for a championship season that is crying out for more knockout on the line football.
Q1 can be on the Saturday of the Leinster and Ulster finals. Q2 can be a week later. An added jeopardy for the qualifier route can be All-Ireland Round 1 on the week after Q2.
The All-Ireland and Tailteann as double elimination formats might have to run in parallel. Possibly the All-Ireland Junior Football Championship final and Tailteann final can be on the Saturday of the All-Ireland final. The Tailteann final then could have a more favourable ticket price.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 07/07/2024 19:26:53
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "No goalkeeper in Aus Ruies." Indeed. But they have a lad that takes a 'kick in' as they call it every time there's a 'behind'. Which is the way things are going in gaelic, goalies are outfield players these days
eslinchickenmaryland (Leitrim) - Posts: 274 - 07/07/2024 20:07:38
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Replying To legendzxix: "FIFA's solution to the extra games is less preparation time from the end of club season to the start of the tournaments!
Getting back to GAELIC FOOTBALL format changes, the qualifiers should return. League qualification is an extreme. Using league for balanced qualifiers brings back knockout football. Maybe two qualifying round is enough?
2024 example: 24 teams for 7 places. (8 provincial finalists and Meath already qualified.)
QUALIFIER ROUND 1
20 teams reduced to 10. 4 byes to Q2 based on league ranking.
QUALIFIER ROUND 2
14 teams for 7 places.
17 additional knockout games for a championship season that is crying out for more knockout on the line football.
Q1 can be on the Saturday of the Leinster and Ulster finals. Q2 can be a week later. An added jeopardy for the qualifier route can be All-Ireland Round 1 on the week after Q2.
The All-Ireland and Tailteann as double elimination formats might have to run in parallel. Possibly the All-Ireland Junior Football Championship final and Tailteann final can be on the Saturday of the All-Ireland final. The Tailteann final then could have a more favourable ticket price." You are only thinking 9f f9rmats that suit your own county even if it doesn't aid any other county. Ridiculous
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 07/07/2024 20:09:47
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Replying To legendzxix: "Different opinions are fair enough. Clubs miss out on qualifying for the Champions League. If they win the Europa League, they are in the next edition of the Champions League. 16 counties and New York miss out on the All-Ireland series. The carrot of winning the Tailteann for qualification in the next year is a fair reward.
The three qualifying rounds I listed were for the intention of balanced draws as much as possible. A winnable Qualifier Round 1 for all. The level gets tougher then over Q2 and Q3.
It brings back a knockout element as well in parallel with the provincial championships. Provincial weekend 3, provincial weekend 5 and the weekend after provincial weekend 6 would suit the three qualifying rounds. The Tailteann Cup after two bites at All-Ireland qualification can arguably be straight knockout. Three strikes and you are out. No complaints." Yes, balanced Qualifier Rds should be the goal. I just feel it's best achieved through your AIC ranking (or league) rather than via Provincial losers (e.g. Connacht 'Big 3' SF loser is stronger than any of the 4 Leinster QF losers). I agree with that carrot, 3/5/after6 and three strikes.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 07/07/2024 20:35:58
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Replying To thebronze14: "A bad game or two and people throwing the toys out of the pram and looking for rule changes. It will end up completely ruining the sport. Some of the trial rules being brought in are laughable. The Euros have been poor but you don't hear football fans looking for change. I think Gaelic football has been poor due to the silly round robin system. Go back to the original way the qualifiers were done and stop messing with super 8s and groups were you can be atrocious and still make it through" "You don't hear" because, dare I state it - the current GAA executive is more progressive (post Burns Presidency).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 07/07/2024 20:39:13
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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8086 - 07/07/2024 19:26:53
Another twist on a '16-team double elimination' for both Tiers 1 & 2:
- 8 seeds (S), 8 non-seeds (N)
- Draw 'two' rounds before the KO
- Rd 1: 2x SvS; 2x NvN; 2x SvN; 2x NvS
- Rd 2: Home & Away teams in Rd 1 switch to Away & Home in Rd 2, respectively, & those who played S or N in Rd 1 play N or S in Rd 2 (drawn games possible)
- Any pairing possible in Rd 1 & 2 (say, non-repeat)
- Combined 16-team table
- Teams with 2 pts or more advance to KO Rd 3
- Byes (0-8) based on team quantity advancing (16-8)
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 07/07/2024 21:23:05
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "I can't recall 2022 being a great vintage year of wonderful entertaining football ." Me neither, but that's not the year I want it to go back to. There was nothing wrong with the pre super 8s era. Was a good system before the GAA got too greedy
thebronze14 (Donegal) - Posts: 45 - 08/07/2024 22:03:08
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Replying To thebronze14: "Me neither, but that's not the year I want it to go back to. There was nothing wrong with the pre super 8s era. Was a good system before the GAA got too greedy" So "good" that 50.5% voted for a " flawed system" in October 2021?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 09/07/2024 11:28:58
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "So "good" that 50.5% voted for a " flawed system" in October 2021?" I think one of the issues with that old system was that we were rushing the National League and playing it at a bad time of year when it was actually the most relevant competition for a lot of teams.
For determining the All Ireland champion the old qualifier system was kind of ok, outside of the Provincial imbalance.
Provincial champions getting straight to the quarter finals wasn't great. Munster and Connacht finalists getting straight to the last 12 wasn't great either.
The other big thing was needing 4 rounds of qualifiers for a quarterfinal losing team to rejoin the main draw. Some of those teams could have had a win under their belt that they were getting little credit for.
I think some these things could have been tweaked and the system as a whole would've been better.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 09/07/2024 14:48:11
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think one of the issues with that old system was that we were rushing the National League and playing it at a bad time of year when it was actually the most relevant competition for a lot of teams.
For determining the All Ireland champion the old qualifier system was kind of ok, outside of the Provincial imbalance.
Provincial champions getting straight to the quarter finals wasn't great. Munster and Connacht finalists getting straight to the last 12 wasn't great either.
The other big thing was needing 4 rounds of qualifiers for a quarterfinal losing team to rejoin the main draw. Some of those teams could have had a win under their belt that they were getting little credit for.
I think some these things could have been tweaked and the system as a whole would've been better." Tailteann Cup reduced the number of Rounds in 2022.
Is Uachtarán Burns' "double eliminator" system virtually a fait accompli at this stage?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 09/07/2024 16:00:42
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Tailteann Cup reduced the number of Rounds in 2022.
Is Uachtarán Burns' "double eliminator" system virtually a fait accompli at this stage?" It also excludes teams though.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 09/07/2024 16:24:20
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Replying To Whammo86: "It also excludes teams though." ????
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 09/07/2024 18:42:42
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Replying To omahant: "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8079 - 06/07/2024 08:36:2
I like that AIC seeding system (a lot) - but feel Whammo's Qualifier format is more straight forward (elegant even?):
Rd 1 - 16 lowest ranked (now AIC) "non-Prov Finalists".
Rd 2 - next 8 lowest "non-PChamps" +8 Rd 1 winners.
Rd 3 / Rd of 16 - best 8 ranked +8 Rd 2 winners.
QFs.
SFs.
F." There is merit to Whammo's suggestion. Where it falls down really is that there is no reward for a Tailteann winner. It also doesn't account for New York either.
In my qualifier example New York would either travel to Ireland for a Connacht semi-final in Week 3 or else for a Qualifier Round 1. They would be able to plan ahead with the guarantee of a game on Irish soil.
Counties crashing out of provincial championships should not be parachuting into the All-Ireland series. There should be the jeopardy and potential banana skin of a qualifying round to keep them on their toes.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 09/07/2024 19:24:32
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Tailteann Cup reduced the number of Rounds in 2022.
Is Uachtarán Burns' "double eliminator" system virtually a fait accompli at this stage?" Last time i heard him being interviewed he sounded like he was not going to approve any major changes in anything.
Indeed, you'd wonder what any executive can do with a well bedded in bureaucracy whose God is the ledger and keeping things,as they suit them.
He does come across well and hopefully his enthusiasm for the language bears fruit.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3118 - 09/07/2024 21:28:57
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Copied this from another forum.....
CCCC are "recommending counties give particular attention to proposals 1 and 2 as we see these as both workable and addressing to a reasonable extent some of the issues…with the current SFC structure."
Option One is effectively a return to the original qualifier system, but with a back door added for teams that lose their round one qualifier.
The back door structure will include first round winners and losers separated and playing off against each other. Teams that win their first two games progress to the last eight, with those that lose their first two eliminated.
Option Two would retain elements of the current round robin system but with provincial winners bypassing the group stage and qualifying straight to the All-Ireland quarter-final.
The round robin section in the Sam Maguire competition would be reduced to 12 teams split into four groups of three, with only the top team in each group qualifying for the last eight.
Option three - As you are and adding a third tier to the championship, while still keeping 16 teams in Sam Maguire, and splitting the other 17 into an eight and a nine.
Option Four - Back to the pre-2018 qualifier system as it was, with straight knockout after the provincial championships
Options Five Split the provincial championship into Sam Maguire / Tailteann Cup, although they concede, it would be almost impossible and CCCC does not favour progressing with it.
Options Six Moving the provincial championships to the start of the year, followed by the league and then round robin championship.
Apparently Option one and two has been favoured the most by counties and on the final proposal, the idea of de-linking the provincial championships from the All-Ireland is mentioned and shot down, with the idea's perceived flaws listed.
With all six proposals, counties are given the option of having a different structure for the Tailteann Cup than for the All-Ireland SFC if that is what they wish to do.
The document recommends that counties give "particular attention to Proposals 1 and 2″ but that they are happy to "broaden the debate on any of the other [four] proposals".
"Depending on the outcome of consultations with our counties, the CCCC may decide to bring proposals to Ard Chomairle
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1954 - 10/07/2024 11:32:36
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A tiered provincial group system taking some influence from hurling would be a bit smoother for scheduling and rewarding provincial winners with a quarter-final.
LEINSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
2 groups of 4.
ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
2 groups of 4.
MUNSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
1 group of 4.
CONNACHT CHAMPIONSHIP
1 group of 4.
TAILTEANN CUP
2 groups of 4.
Basically the top 2 from each provincial group into the All-Ireland series. 4 provincial runners-up versus 4 Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists in preliminary quarter-finals. 4 provincial winners versus Pre-QF winners in the quarter-finals.
The Tailteann Cup winner should be promoted to their provincial championship.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8284 - 10/07/2024 14:13:45
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Replying To legendzxix: "A tiered provincial group system taking some influence from hurling would be a bit smoother for scheduling and rewarding provincial winners with a quarter-final.
LEINSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
2 groups of 4.
ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
2 groups of 4.
MUNSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
1 group of 4.
CONNACHT CHAMPIONSHIP
1 group of 4.
TAILTEANN CUP
2 groups of 4.
Basically the top 2 from each provincial group into the All-Ireland series. 4 provincial runners-up versus 4 Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists in preliminary quarter-finals. 4 provincial winners versus Pre-QF winners in the quarter-finals.
The Tailteann Cup winner should be promoted to their provincial championship." The biggest issue with that is that the 3rd best team in Connacht (and probably the 3rd best team in Munster too) is better than the 3 goobers in Leinster that get hockeyed the least by the dubs. Not to mention that the standard of the group without the dubs will be dismal.
systematic (Galway) - Posts: 119 - 10/07/2024 17:03:18
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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8089 - 10/07/2024 14:13:45 2558216
That works but I would like more variety year to year.
I'd do a bit of 'mix n match' with the 6 Prov groups:
2 Lein/Uls (Groups LU1 & LU2, 2 from L&U in each)
1 Conn/Uls (Group CU, 2 from C&U)
1 Muns/Uls (Group MU, 2 from M&U)
1 Lein/Conn (LC) group (2 from L&C)
1 Lein/Muns (LM) group (2 from L&M)
Lein SFs, Uls SFs, Conn F, Muns F (highest placed in groups).
4 Prov Champs, 4 Group Winners & Next Best Group Records to AIC Last 12 (4 Group Winners, not necessarily Prov Champs get byes).
Yes, Tailteann Winer promoted to own Prov and replaces team with weakest record.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 10/07/2024 18:14:52
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@Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1672 - 10/07/2024 11:32:36 2558178
My two cents on these:
Opt 1: In Rd 2, have "8 Rd 1 winners v 8 Rd 1 losers" instead, variable double winners advance 2 rds, single winners to Rd 3 and double losers out.
Opt 2: No - too much waiting for Prov Champs and still too easy for Dub/Kerry.
Opt 3: Yes - to 3rd Tier, but have lower 17 seeded and playoff for Tier 2 QFs and Other 9 in Tier 3.
Opt 4: Amend to "Whammo" version = lowest 16 non Prov Finalists to Rd 1; next lowest 8 non Prov Champs + 8 Rd 1 winners to Rd 2; and best 8 + 8 Rd 2 winners to 'Rd of 16'.
Opt 5: Looks like it has "Legendzxix" finger prints - might work, would need to see details.
Opt 6: Amend - sequence is good - but I would defer Prov SFs/Finals to later for prestige, during league.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2889 - 10/07/2024 18:49:32
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