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Replying To WEX98: "I'm just wondering what type of game the "experts" are expecting......the FRC committee is made up of former managers.......they brought in the tactics they now want to change.........I don't recall Stephen Cluxon kicking the kickouts past the 40. Apparently he was the greatest goalkeeper ever due to the quality of his kick outs, I often wondered how good would his kicks have been if he was kicking out to the Wexford footballers!!" Cluxton was the first keeper to be able to accurately hit a kick out 65m to a man on the run, thus avoiding the need for high fielding midfielders.
He changed the way kick outs are done. If you missed it, you didn't know what went on in Gaelic football for the past 15 years.
In every match Dublin were out under pressure on kick outs early on (Kerry 2011, Kerry&Mayo in 2013, Mayo replay 2015, Kerry, Mayox2 in 2016, Mayo 2017 and 19) Cluxton stepped up and hit his kickouts long in the 2nd half to over come a deficit. If he hadn't that in the locker Mayo & Kerry would have dominated that decade and Dublin would have had 4-5 less all Irelands in that decade.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1304 - 16/10/2024 01:50:16
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NO, Is the answer. It is still 'handball'.
While the new rules have generally been a success, one critical area where they have failed is in decreasing the number of handpasses. The ratio of handpasses to kicks is as bad as ever.
Paul Early said in 2024 that the new rules will have failed if the ratio does not drop; well, presumably Paul considers the new rules a failure.
It's surprising that this 'failure' has not been highlighted anywhere - as far as I can see. Neither have the FRC members been asked about it - as far as I can see.
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 335 - 08/04/2025 14:44:26
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Replying To Aibrean: "NO, Is the answer. It is still 'handball'.
While the new rules have generally been a success, one critical area where they have failed is in decreasing the number of handpasses. The ratio of handpasses to kicks is as bad as ever.
Paul Early said in 2024 that the new rules will have failed if the ratio does not drop; well, presumably Paul considers the new rules a failure.
It's surprising that this 'failure' has not been highlighted anywhere - as far as I can see. Neither have the FRC members been asked about it - as far as I can see." Yer man Breheny in the Independent is on about it constantly, so it has been highlighted somewhere.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4082 - 08/04/2025 16:36:06
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Cluxton was the first keeper to be able to accurately hit a kick out 65m to a man on the run, thus avoiding the need for high fielding midfielders.
He changed the way kick outs are done. If you missed it, you didn't know what went on in Gaelic football for the past 15 years.
In every match Dublin were out under pressure on kick outs early on (Kerry 2011, Kerry&Mayo in 2013, Mayo replay 2015, Kerry, Mayox2 in 2016, Mayo 2017 and 19) Cluxton stepped up and hit his kickouts long in the 2nd half to over come a deficit. If he hadn't that in the locker Mayo & Kerry would have dominated that decade and Dublin would have had 4-5 less all Irelands in that decade." Regardless, of Cluxton's kickouts the Dubs would have won those All Irelands. Not just quality footballers their mental strength and ability to close out tight games was better than ours our Kerry teams at that time. We also knew what to expect and didn't implement means to counteract Cluxtons kickout. Plenty of crucial times that kickout was to Kilkenny. Last year in The Hyde, Dublin needing a draw to top the group we stood and watched the kickout, Kilkenny fetched it and our lads didn't hinder him on the halfway line. A script we had seen before, when Rochford was manager, but no lessons learned.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7910 - 08/04/2025 17:42:43
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Replying To Aibrean: "NO, Is the answer. It is still 'handball'.
While the new rules have generally been a success, one critical area where they have failed is in decreasing the number of handpasses. The ratio of handpasses to kicks is as bad as ever.
Paul Early said in 2024 that the new rules will have failed if the ratio does not drop; well, presumably Paul considers the new rules a failure.
It's surprising that this 'failure' has not been highlighted anywhere - as far as I can see. Neither have the FRC members been asked about it - as far as I can see." And it won't be asked about…. RTE are running an agenda that sees them agreeing with all the rules at all times… Some of the rules are absolutely ridiculous and are turning the game into a farce… 2/3 simple changes would have improved the game to no end but they introduced far too many and now game is unrecognisable… but the one thing that firmly remains as you have pointed out is the nauseating amount of lateral and backwards hand passing… This will get increasingly worse as the Championship begins to get more serious
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3729 - 08/04/2025 18:25:11
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "Yer man Breheny in the Independent is on about it constantly, so it has been highlighted somewhere." That's good. And, I think, Sean Moran in the Irish Times has mentioned it.
But the 'GAA Establishment' such as The Sunday Game, Joe Brolly, Colm O Rourke, Jarlath Burns, and, particularly, the FRC members have all sworn an oath of silence.
Whereas, before the FRC went to work most people, I think, would have said it was the No.1 problem.
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 335 - 08/04/2025 18:33:16
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Replying To Aibrean: "NO, Is the answer. It is still 'handball'.
While the new rules have generally been a success, one critical area where they have failed is in decreasing the number of handpasses. The ratio of handpasses to kicks is as bad as ever.
Paul Early said in 2024 that the new rules will have failed if the ratio does not drop; well, presumably Paul considers the new rules a failure.
It's surprising that this 'failure' has not been highlighted anywhere - as far as I can see. Neither have the FRC members been asked about it - as far as I can see." What is the problem with handpassing? It adds a whole extra skill level to the game. GAA+ have about 7 minutes of the 1961 Down v Offaly final in their archive. There wasn't a single handpass (granted It's a small sample but chances are that was typical enough). But it was atrocious and chaotic, full of errors.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 132 - 08/04/2025 20:18:35
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Replying To CeachtPeile: "What is the problem with handpassing? It adds a whole extra skill level to the game. GAA+ have about 7 minutes of the 1961 Down v Offaly final in their archive. There wasn't a single handpass (granted It's a small sample but chances are that was typical enough). But it was atrocious and chaotic, full of errors." From what I see you're the only Cavan man on here with a knowledge of the game.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2284 - 08/04/2025 21:13:00
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Replying To Saynothing: "From what I see you're the only Cavan man on here with a knowledge of the game." And you're the one Tyrone man that's totally delusional along with being clueless about the game…. Hand passing has football ( now handball ) ruined …. !
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3729 - 08/04/2025 22:27:52
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Depends on the handpassing. Some teams can attack with pace with handpassing. It is the lateral handpassing and slowing the game down that drives people mad.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8718 - 09/04/2025 12:10:15
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Regardless, of Cluxton's kickouts the Dubs would have won those All Irelands. Not just quality footballers their mental strength and ability to close out tight games was better than ours our Kerry teams at that time. We also knew what to expect and didn't implement means to counteract Cluxtons kickout. Plenty of crucial times that kickout was to Kilkenny. Last year in The Hyde, Dublin needing a draw to top the group we stood and watched the kickout, Kilkenny fetched it and our lads didn't hinder him on the halfway line. A script we had seen before, when Rochford was manager, but no lessons learned." The man on the sideline for Dublin had a lot to do with them winning. If we had Gavin on our sideline I believe we'd have won 3.
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 517 - 09/04/2025 13:03:57
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "And it won't be asked about…. RTE are running an agenda that sees them agreeing with all the rules at all times… Some of the rules are absolutely ridiculous and are turning the game into a farce… 2/3 simple changes would have improved the game to no end but they introduced far too many and now game is unrecognisable… but the one thing that firmly remains as you have pointed out is the nauseating amount of lateral and backwards hand passing… This will get increasingly worse as the Championship begins to get more serious" The forward mark is stupid. It's getting to a stage where a shot clock is needed and crossing back into your own half of the field should be banned once you've crossed the 45m line. I know they're two things from basketball and I'm not really into basketball but something needs to stop this back and forth and yoyoing of the ball.
Having to hand the ball to an opponent is stupid, it puts you out of position to defend. Getting a simple tap over free for not keeping three back is stupid.
A player catches the ball from a kick out and you can't tackle him straight away is down right silly, just enforce the existing laws as they, stop the swarm tackle. I think the biggest change needed is having two referees for Inter County games,
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 517 - 09/04/2025 13:19:49
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Replying To cluichethar: "The forward mark is stupid. It's getting to a stage where a shot clock is needed and crossing back into your own half of the field should be banned once you've crossed the 45m line. I know they're two things from basketball and I'm not really into basketball but something needs to stop this back and forth and yoyoing of the ball.
Having to hand the ball to an opponent is stupid, it puts you out of position to defend. Getting a simple tap over free for not keeping three back is stupid.
A player catches the ball from a kick out and you can't tackle him straight away is down right silly, just enforce the existing laws as they, stop the swarm tackle. I think the biggest change needed is having two referees for Inter County games," I would agree with nearly all that…especially about the new rules..but no need for 2 referees… Umpires and linesmen for county games should be referees and all have the power to call the refs attention.. If 7 officials can't see what's going on during a match then it's time to pack it in ..,
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3729 - 10/04/2025 07:05:39
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "I would agree with nearly all that…especially about the new rules..but no need for 2 referees… Umpires and linesmen for county games should be referees and all have the power to call the refs attention.. If 7 officials can't see what's going on during a match then it's time to pack it in ..," Is that what you want to see in games? Ball moved towards the goal, a shot or fisted point attempt within the shot clock limit? Then, depending on the outcome, a free out for going over the limit without an attempt at a score, another attacking spell within the clock limit, and/or turnover or kickout, move the ball up the pitch and repeat until there's an attempt at a shot or handpassed point. End to end, reduced flaur, making it easier for defences because they only need defend for short spells as their opponents will eventually be rushed into a scoring attempt. The analytical coaches will find a way to break down the rules to stifle the opponents attackers and try to force them into mistakes. Basketball and football are completely different sports. I don't see any advantage to having a shot clock in Gaelic Football. If you think the new rules make the game look different imagine what a shot clock would bring? End to end, reduced physicality, more athletes less footballers, rushed attempts at scores adapted from a game that's only skill is putting a big ball into a basket that's ten feet off the ground in an indoor hard court, rolling subs, minimal contact, 5v5 in a small space. Be careful what you wish for.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7910 - 11/04/2025 01:37:13
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Some have asked 'what's wrong with the handpass'. Here is my answer:
• There is little or no skill involved: two normal 70 year olds could handpass the ball back and forth to each other.
• It contributes hugely to the sleep-inducing boring 'piggy-in-the-middle' stuff.
• It means that the game once called "football" is now 'handball".
• Many of the handpasses are illegal: supposed to be "a definite underhand striking action". Nowadays, we see 2-handed handpasses all the time, even the old scrum-half diving pass (Michael Murphy laid on a goal with such a pass in the league) is acceptable. And, of course, we see one-handed throws all the time.
• It gives a huge advantage to the team in possession as they can continue to play 'piggy-in-the-middle' while the other team runs around aimlessly after them.
• Further to the last point a fundamental issue with Gaelic Football is that there is no legitimate way to dispossess the player in possession which means that the team in possession has a huge advantage; this huge advantage is accentuated by the handpass.
• And, further again to the last point, because there is no legitimate way to dispossess, the game has evolved such that the player is possession can be battered (illegally) from all sides, and literally held, such that he can't move. For example, a player can be 'tackled' by 2 who put their arms around him such that he can't escape their clutches; why can't he escape i.e. run out between them? Obviously, very obviously, because he's being held; and, of course, it's a foul "To hold an opponent with the hand(s)".
• So, curtailing the handpass - such that the player in possession has to kick - would give the advantage back to the tackler. The tackler would not have to resort to battering/holding; he could concentrate on blocking down. Similarly, the player in possession would have more difficulty in successfully getting rid of the ball.
• Some say the handpass enables "attacking with pace". Surely, kick-passing enables attacking with even more pace? Anyway, what's to like about handpassing the ball the length of the field?
• And the solution:
IF YOU RECEIVE A HANDPASS YOU MUST KICK THE BALL.
What could be simpler? Even referees can count up to 1. (We know they have difficulty beyond 4).
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 335 - 11/04/2025 10:43:58
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Replying To cluichethar: "The forward mark is stupid. It's getting to a stage where a shot clock is needed and crossing back into your own half of the field should be banned once you've crossed the 45m line. I know they're two things from basketball and I'm not really into basketball but something needs to stop this back and forth and yoyoing of the ball.
Having to hand the ball to an opponent is stupid, it puts you out of position to defend. Getting a simple tap over free for not keeping three back is stupid.
A player catches the ball from a kick out and you can't tackle him straight away is down right silly, just enforce the existing laws as they, stop the swarm tackle. I think the biggest change needed is having two referees for Inter County games," Some kind of use it or loose it rule would help; especially the situations where teams are too happy to go backwards in possession. A shot clock could lead to the game becoming too rushed - especially if the time was tight; but I think the "backcourt" suggestion would be worth a look. The opposition would have another sideline to push up against in an attempt to win possession back - if they didn't choose to; they can have no complaints looking at the over and back.
The hand off should be put the ball on the ground and get on with the game. I have seen referees making a 50/50 call on a technical free (over carrying) and then moving the ball up 50 meters when the offending player can't find an opposition player to give the ball to quick enough!
As for the 3 up rule; the sanction when breaking the rule in possession should be a turnover on halfway to the opposition; if you break the rule when defending by bringing an extra defender back then a tap over free is fine in my opinion (but it should never be allowed to be brought out for a 2 point attempt).
I disagree on the kickout mark - I like this as its brought high fielding back into the game. The swarm tackle is here to stay and when done right forces a turnover through overcarrying. Its up to the players to identify where the space is and not get surrounded.
I don't know if 2 referees would work but an additional referee in the stand mic'd up to the main referee could help. I predict that some level of VAR will be brought into the game for checking 2 pointers and square balls after a controversial exit at some stage this year.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 420 - 11/04/2025 11:46:47
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Is that what you want to see in games? Ball moved towards the goal, a shot or fisted point attempt within the shot clock limit? Then, depending on the outcome, a free out for going over the limit without an attempt at a score, another attacking spell within the clock limit, and/or turnover or kickout, move the ball up the pitch and repeat until there's an attempt at a shot or handpassed point. End to end, reduced flaur, making it easier for defences because they only need defend for short spells as their opponents will eventually be rushed into a scoring attempt. The analytical coaches will find a way to break down the rules to stifle the opponents attackers and try to force them into mistakes. Basketball and football are completely different sports. I don't see any advantage to having a shot clock in Gaelic Football. If you think the new rules make the game look different imagine what a shot clock would bring? End to end, reduced physicality, more athletes less footballers, rushed attempts at scores adapted from a game that's only skill is putting a big ball into a basket that's ten feet off the ground in an indoor hard court, rolling subs, minimal contact, 5v5 in a small space. Be careful what you wish for." What's your solution to stop teams from passing the ball back and forth along the big arc. The game is dying as a spectator sport. How many times have Mayo been in position to take a score only to cycle the ball out again. Yes defenders will only have to defend for a set period of time but as it stands now fans are bored to tears with all the back and forth. I don't know what you mean by a rushed shot players have plenty time to shoot they just refuse to instead they look for an easier attempt. As I started off with What's your solution to this back and forth
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 517 - 14/04/2025 12:50:03
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Replying To brianb: "Some kind of use it or loose it rule would help; especially the situations where teams are too happy to go backwards in possession. A shot clock could lead to the game becoming too rushed - especially if the time was tight; but I think the "backcourt" suggestion would be worth a look. The opposition would have another sideline to push up against in an attempt to win possession back - if they didn't choose to; they can have no complaints looking at the over and back.
The hand off should be put the ball on the ground and get on with the game. I have seen referees making a 50/50 call on a technical free (over carrying) and then moving the ball up 50 meters when the offending player can't find an opposition player to give the ball to quick enough!
As for the 3 up rule; the sanction when breaking the rule in possession should be a turnover on halfway to the opposition; if you break the rule when defending by bringing an extra defender back then a tap over free is fine in my opinion (but it should never be allowed to be brought out for a 2 point attempt).
I disagree on the kickout mark - I like this as its brought high fielding back into the game. The swarm tackle is here to stay and when done right forces a turnover through overcarrying. Its up to the players to identify where the space is and not get surrounded.
I don't know if 2 referees would work but an additional referee in the stand mic'd up to the main referee could help. I predict that some level of VAR will be brought into the game for checking 2 pointers and square balls after a controversial exit at some stage this year." I like the kick out mark when called what I don't like is you can't tackle him when he doesn't call it and just solos away.
Keeping three back shouldn't matter if the players involved isn't interfering with in the play. We've seen too many times where a team is attacking and all of a sudden the ball is down the other end for a simple tap over point. It's all good till an All Ireland is lost or won because of this.
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 517 - 14/04/2025 12:59:51
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Replying To cluichethar: "What's your solution to stop teams from passing the ball back and forth along the big arc. The game is dying as a spectator sport. How many times have Mayo been in position to take a score only to cycle the ball out again. Yes defenders will only have to defend for a set period of time but as it stands now fans are bored to tears with all the back and forth. I don't know what you mean by a rushed shot players have plenty time to shoot they just refuse to instead they look for an easier attempt. As I started off with What's your solution to this back and forth" There's no good solutions, some teams will do it and some teams won't. I think our standard of attacking is more to do with coaching and over-reluance on Ryan and Aidan. Everyone has their own idea what a good game should look like. I agree it's boring but we can't contrive to make every game of football all action for all of the game. It's very difficult to expect a ball kicked inside the 45 and only one handpass leading to a scoring chance within a small space. So don't reward over handpassing within the 45 unless their's progression, attacking intent. A backward handpass in there could be treated like a knock-on in rugby, turned over if ref blows. But also 3 handpasses, max, of progression, however they judge that, before a kick ,maybe a kind of use it or lose it rule. If there was a shot clock defenders can keep opponents out, try running down to the clock limit and force them into a shot they're not set for.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7910 - 14/04/2025 19:52:04
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I have started to watch Gaelic football a bit lately. Growing up it was my sport and my dad was an accomplished player. My club only played football.
It is going the right direction now. There was more "foot " ball in the last while than for many years. I love some of the new rules. Some not so much. I'd forget about the curved line and have an area where between the half way line and the 20 meter line the play must go forward by the attacking team. Also the goalie must stay inside his 20 meter line. There is nothing more ridiculous than seen a player with a different colour shirt 20 meters from the opposition goal. The quick free is great and dissent penalized with the ball moved up. These are just my opinions but liking what I am seeing.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3021 - 18/04/2025 00:18:06
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