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Replying To BarneyGrant: "90% of population growth is made up of immigrants. Therefore 90%of housing demand is made up of immigrants looking for housing.
And there are people here who think the solution is to take Irish people's homes from them and force them to downsize!
In what universe is this even approaching sanity?" How many children did you have Barney? And how many do the average Irish couple have now relative to 30 years ago? And why don't more of these children stay in Ireland?
If it wasn't for immigrants our population would be falling, and our economy would collapse along with our essential services like hospitals.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13662 - 03/11/2024 13:46:26
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "There is nothing much to think about. I made statements of fact.
If you think that the future of the state ought to be 90% driven by the needs of immigrants and their corporate employers, then fine. Don't pretend that it is not going to make this country unrecognisable within two generations.
I doubt there are too many countries in the world that take such a dim view of themselves. We are an odd people." Firstly, 90% of population growth coming from immigration does not equal to 90% of housing demand coming from immigrants.
Irish nationals (born here to Irish parents) who are renting or living with parents and who want to buy make up the majority of our housing demand. Their reluctance to move any kind of distance from their parents or workplace is creating a huge log-jam.
Your last 2 sentences may be the first thing you've said that I fully agree with. Ireland is a fantastic place to live and as a people we complain about our lot like no other.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5149 - 03/11/2024 14:16:24
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "90% of population growth is made up of immigrants. Therefore 90%of housing demand is made up of immigrants looking for housing.
And there are people here who think the solution is to take Irish people's homes from them and force them to downsize!
In what universe is this even approaching sanity?" I think you need to fact check those stats which you have plucked off what must be from the latest social media outlets. 90% made up of immigrants ?? Just trot out a few numbers so us lesser mortals can see for ourselves. A few facts please, if you would.
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1243 - 03/11/2024 14:18:40
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There ain't no one enticing me and my good lady into any apartment. After all the money I put into my place
The memories of raising my 4 children under that roof.
Something I would be willing to do time for.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8672 - 03/11/2024 14:44:07
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Replying To cavanman47: "We have just about an equal opportunity society than any nation on earth, yes I do think so.
The 'average' house price. . . Kind of proves my point. Take the price and quantity of houses in Dublin out of the mix and watch that ratio tumble.
As I said; it is possible to work in Dublin, on Dublin wages, and live in another county where housing is mich more affordable. There is a flat out refusal to do this by the majority of those my age or younger (I'm in my mid 30s)." The problem is not confined to Dublin. My own personal experience was entering about 15 bidding wars with Dublin couples bringing their Dublin wages to buy a house in Wexford which nearly pushed me out until I was lucky enough to buy from a family friend. I paid a fair price but if it had gone to market it could have gone up by 40k and I'd have been stretched too far. That's the story for everyone my age in Wexford. I'm also in my mid 30s. By this age my parents were over a decade into their 17k mortgage for a 3 bed house. I paid more than ten times what they did. I've only just surpassed my father's income, I have two degrees and he doesn't have a junior cert. My mother never worked from the time my older sibling was born. That's a pipe dream now
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3096 - 03/11/2024 15:29:33
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Replying To Doylerwex: "The problem is not confined to Dublin. My own personal experience was entering about 15 bidding wars with Dublin couples bringing their Dublin wages to buy a house in Wexford which nearly pushed me out until I was lucky enough to buy from a family friend. I paid a fair price but if it had gone to market it could have gone up by 40k and I'd have been stretched too far. That's the story for everyone my age in Wexford. I'm also in my mid 30s. By this age my parents were over a decade into their 17k mortgage for a 3 bed house. I paid more than ten times what they did. I've only just surpassed my father's income, I have two degrees and he doesn't have a junior cert. My mother never worked from the time my older sibling was born. That's a pipe dream now" You could literally be describing me and my parents there. And countless others around the country.
Let me ask you; do you think many people our age or younger work as hard as your Dad did?
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5149 - 03/11/2024 15:59:04
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Barney is some man for throwing out stats. I have only stopped laughing at him linking immigration to the drop in students studying Irish in secondary schools.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8099 - 03/11/2024 16:18:07
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Barney is some man for throwing out stats. I have only stopped laughing at him linking immigration to the drop in students studying Irish in secondary schools." I was told by a man that he could have bought 3 x 3 bedroom houses on a side street in a small Wicklow town for 18 pounds each back in the 50/60s. So, comparing house prices and incomes and living standards mean different things to different people. Hidden taxes are also a contributing factor in high building costs. 23% vat, the cost of labour has about another inbuilt tax of around 30% with income tax and other contributions. The latest building Reg's to bring houses to A rated standards has added around €50k to building costs. What is the planning fee per housing unit - another 10k. Other fees, electricity, water, conveyancing, auctioneers etc. then add on the ridiculous cost of the site and you find the actual build cost is surprising.
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1243 - 03/11/2024 16:41:03
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Replying To cavanman47: "You could literally be describing me and my parents there. And countless others around the country.
Let me ask you; do you think many people our age or younger work as hard as your Dad did?" That's a very good question, but also a very subjective one. My Dad has worked exceptionally hard In his life, but it was relatively stress free. Our worlds are very different but he'll never understand the type of mental burnout professionals our age have experienced, equally, I'll never know the toll that his work has taken on him physically.
Anyway... We digress... The point is somewhere between their time and ours, our housing system completely broke and needs to be salvaged at all costs.
If you don't have some hope of upward social mobility capitalism will fail. That sounds dramatic, bit that will happen.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3096 - 03/11/2024 20:46:22
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Replying To realdub: "There ain't no one enticing me and my good lady into any apartment. After all the money I put into my place
The memories of raising my 4 children under that roof.
Something I would be willing to do time for." Is it a council house? Why would you put money into that?
If it's not then yo aren't part of the rationale.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3096 - 03/11/2024 20:48:53
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Barney is some man for throwing out stats. I have only stopped laughing at him linking immigration to the drop in students studying Irish in secondary schools." Not my stats. Official ones. CSO regards population.
You are great man for anecdotes in placecof facts.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3073 - 03/11/2024 21:15:24
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Barney is some man for throwing out stats. I have only stopped laughing at him linking immigration to the drop in students studying Irish in secondary schools." Not my stats. Official ones. CSO regards population.
You are great man for anecdotes in placecof facts.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3073 - 03/11/2024 21:15:36
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Replying To Freethinker: "I think you need to fact check those stats which you have plucked off what must be from the latest social media outlets. 90% made up of immigrants ?? Just trot out a few numbers so us lesser mortals can see for ourselves. A few facts please, if you would." You google CSO latest population projections like a good man.
I don't work for CSO.
90% of population growth is immigration.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3073 - 03/11/2024 21:17:22
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Not my stats. Official ones. CSO regards population.
You are great man for anecdotes in placecof facts." Anecdotes? You want to revisit the Irish language in schools debate with me? I will give you facts and numbers. You will tell me again you heard from a friend of yours who is a teacher.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8099 - 03/11/2024 21:35:35
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To updwell: "[quote=supersub15: "It's worth remembering that the world is at war and it appears to be gaining momentum, the ongoing war is directly responsible for migration, emigration and immigration, then of course we have the Economic migrant as well. The whipping up of hatred towards migrants and refugees is despicable and disgusting in this country. That statement is very unfair and unwarranted to suggest all Irish men and women here have whipped up a hatred towards migrants and refugees in this country.
There were housing issues, hospital waiting lists and social issues, ever before immigration was an issue here and young people leaving now is down to life style choices rather than being driven out by migrants.
Of course there were housing, hospital waiting lists, social issues etc, etc, but not on the same scale then, as compared to today, not by a long shot, the shortage of housing and hospital beds is unprecedented never before experienced or seen in this country, the hospital waiting lists and the shortage of beds can at times be immoral and unforgiveable but we take it on the chin do we not.
I only ask one question, at what stage of the current house building revolution will it slow down or stop, if it doesn't will our supporting services like, water, sewage, power supply's, schools, hospitals, security, green belts or play areas, appropriate infrastructure, and all the other stuff that goes with it be able to support the housing program.
For as long as this housing program and the influx of migrants continues I have no problem with that so long as both are metered and programmed fairly and our own natives are not to be seen losing out or taking an unnecessary hit, that's not much to ask for continued cooperation.
For what it's worth I do think Irish people will become a minority here." There certainly is Irish men and women whipping up hatred towards migrants, you can see it on social media every weekend false patriots waving tricolour outside refugee centres. The health system has been creaking here for the last 30 years so blaming a migrant because you can't get a GP appointment or your on a waiting list has a lot more to do with successive governments closing down regional hospitals and ED's. Just think about it a refugee must be in a pretty bad situation to come over here to sleep in a tent in Dublin and see this as an improvement in their circumstances. We all agree here that the housing situation is dire and here we have thousands of men not allowed to work who could be carpenters, block layers, plasterers, plumbers etc., why not give these people asylum straight away if they can prove on a trial basis that they can contribute in a positive way to Irish society by working in areas that we are clearly lacking people in."
tommyjohn (Monaghan) - Posts: 61 - 03/11/2024 23:11:58
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Anecdotes? You want to revisit the Irish language in schools debate with me? I will give you facts and numbers. You will tell me again you heard from a friend of yours who is a teacher." About 12 months ago
I saw a homeless guy living in a tyre.
I did him a favour and punctured it.
He's now living in a flat.
( He Had A "Good Year")
Satire not intended.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3027 - 04/11/2024 12:34:54
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Replying To Doylerwex: "That's a very good question, but also a very subjective one. My Dad has worked exceptionally hard In his life, but it was relatively stress free. Our worlds are very different but he'll never understand the type of mental burnout professionals our age have experienced, equally, I'll never know the toll that his work has taken on him physically.
Anyway... We digress... The point is somewhere between their time and ours, our housing system completely broke and needs to be salvaged at all costs.
If you don't have some hope of upward social mobility capitalism will fail. That sounds dramatic, bit that will happen." But we have a greater prospect of upward social mobility than ever before. . .
Look at the amount of women who are now pursuing careers that were essentially denied to them in 20th century Ireland.
What that now means is that your average working couple has an income of over €90k per annum. (Based on average salary of 45k). That gives them the borrowing potential of 315k for a mortgage of €346'500.
The median house price in Ireland is (as of June 2024) €337'500.
It's that very presence of upward mobility that is inflating house prices in Dublin and some other urban centres, but take that away and it's not just house prices that will fall - it's employment rates, population and living standards.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5149 - 04/11/2024 13:03:12
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Replying To cavanman47: "But we have a greater prospect of upward social mobility than ever before. . .
Look at the amount of women who are now pursuing careers that were essentially denied to them in 20th century Ireland.
What that now means is that your average working couple has an income of over €90k per annum. (Based on average salary of 45k). That gives them the borrowing potential of 315k for a mortgage of €346'500.
The median house price in Ireland is (as of June 2024) €337'500.
It's that very presence of upward mobility that is inflating house prices in Dublin and some other urban centres, but take that away and it's not just house prices that will fall - it's employment rates, population and living standards." Are you presenting this scenario as a positive?
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12165 - 04/11/2024 15:11:41
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Replying To cavanman47: "But we have a greater prospect of upward social mobility than ever before. . .
Look at the amount of women who are now pursuing careers that were essentially denied to them in 20th century Ireland.
What that now means is that your average working couple has an income of over €90k per annum. (Based on average salary of 45k). That gives them the borrowing potential of 315k for a mortgage of €346'500.
The median house price in Ireland is (as of June 2024) €337'500.
It's that very presence of upward mobility that is inflating house prices in Dublin and some other urban centres, but take that away and it's not just house prices that will fall - it's employment rates, population and living standards." You do realise what you've said has proven my point. You now require two salaries when one was sufficient up to the 90s.
That's not upward social mobility. Taking infants away from their mothers isn't progress. It's damaging our society.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3096 - 04/11/2024 15:15:18
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Replying To cavanman47: "But we have a greater prospect of upward social mobility than ever before. . .
Look at the amount of women who are now pursuing careers that were essentially denied to them in 20th century Ireland.
What that now means is that your average working couple has an income of over €90k per annum. (Based on average salary of 45k). That gives them the borrowing potential of 315k for a mortgage of €346'500.
The median house price in Ireland is (as of June 2024) €337'500.
It's that very presence of upward mobility that is inflating house prices in Dublin and some other urban centres, but take that away and it's not just house prices that will fall - it's employment rates, population and living standards." Sorry it's also important to point out average wage of 45k is bogus. You should read the formula they use to calculate that. It's every PAYE worker's earnings divided by the number of workers. There's no differential between somebody earning 7 figures and somebody on a zero hour contract claiming supplementary welfare.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3096 - 04/11/2024 15:18:05
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