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Replying To cavanman47:  "How is it a good thing? Is that not obvious?

It has enabled 50'000 people to buy houses since it's introduction. That's a good thing IMO.

It tackles the main blocker to home buying - the deposit, with the trade-off being a longer mortgage or a slightly higher monthly payment (which is still lower than market rent). That's a good trade-off IMO.

The reason SF don't like it is nothing to do with overall house price. It's because it works by giving tax payers back money they have paid in tax over the previous 4 years. And those people, as we all know, are not SF's voting base."
If there was a better supply of houses, then there'd be no need for inflationary schemes as prices would be lower. Also I know a good few of the SF people around here, they all work BTW.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 13/11/2024 14:31:13    2579526

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Replying To cavanman47:  "How is it a good thing? Is that not obvious?

It has enabled 50'000 people to buy houses since it's introduction. That's a good thing IMO.

It tackles the main blocker to home buying - the deposit, with the trade-off being a longer mortgage or a slightly higher monthly payment (which is still lower than market rent). That's a good trade-off IMO.

The reason SF don't like it is nothing to do with overall house price. It's because it works by giving tax payers back money they have paid in tax over the previous 4 years. And those people, as we all know, are not SF's voting base."
The middle class.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7642 - 13/11/2024 14:37:35    2579528

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Replying To cavanman47:  "I haven't said high prices are a good thing. I've stated that high prices can only exist when demand is there. And demand can only be there is large numbers of people can afford houses.


I didn't take issue with Doylerwex about "pulling the ladder up". It was Breffni I took issue with and he then clarified that he wasn't referring to me."
It depends on the houses and how affordable the terms of the mortgages are to buyers. Government has made it their business to incentivise first time buyers into buying new homes. Some of them would prefer to buy used homes for lower mortgages.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7642 - 13/11/2024 14:46:33    2579529

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Replying To Viking66:  "If there was a better supply of houses, then there'd be no need for inflationary schemes as prices would be lower. Also I know a good few of the SF people around here, they all work BTW."
I agree. Both cases are true but is the demand high because the supply is lower or is there savage competition for adequate supply? I believe the former is the case.

I believe Cavanman is making an argument for the latter.

The best metric is that your monthly repayment should not exceed 30% of your income in a healthy economy. Working backwards from that is where we need to get to.

If the wage is 45k, affordable is approx 1k per month mortgage. Over 35 years that's about 200k. These numbers are intended as a guide only and need to be considered in the context of other inflationary pressures in the overall macro environment.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3131 - 13/11/2024 18:01:29    2579557

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Replying To cavanman47:  "I haven't said high prices are a good thing. I've stated that high prices can only exist when demand is there. And demand can only be there is large numbers of people can afford houses.


I didn't take issue with Doylerwex about "pulling the ladder up". It was Breffni I took issue with and he then clarified that he wasn't referring to me."
Just to be clear I was quoting another poster and it wasn't intended to be a dig at you. For very different view points I appreciate our discussion has been quite amicable.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3131 - 13/11/2024 18:03:45    2579558

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Just to be clear I was quoting another poster and it wasn't intended to be a dig at you. For very different view points I appreciate our discussion has been quite amicable."
Yeah I appreciate that too. I think it remains amicable because we're both coming from an honest place.


Can I ask you to do something. . .

Your 45k example would mean a mortgage potential for a first time buyer of 173k (45x3.5)+10% i.e. what a bank would lend plus 10% deposit.

Take your own county, go on one of the property websites, and search for all properties with at least 1 bedroom (to filter out sites) and put a max price of 175k in.

Now it'll throw up some dilapidated properties, but it will also throw up some turn-key 2 and 3 bed properties, in the likes of Enniscorthy, Wexford Town and New Ross.

Do you still think home ownership is out of reach for the example you've outlined?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5181 - 13/11/2024 21:11:21    2579571

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Yeah I appreciate that too. I think it remains amicable because we're both coming from an honest place.


Can I ask you to do something. . .

Your 45k example would mean a mortgage potential for a first time buyer of 173k (45x3.5)+10% i.e. what a bank would lend plus 10% deposit.

Take your own county, go on one of the property websites, and search for all properties with at least 1 bedroom (to filter out sites) and put a max price of 175k in.

Now it'll throw up some dilapidated properties, but it will also throw up some turn-key 2 and 3 bed properties, in the likes of Enniscorthy, Wexford Town and New Ross.

Do you still think home ownership is out of reach for the example you've outlined?"
I actually do and I'll explain exactly why.

1. Wexford is an economically disadvantaged area. The average salary here is actually closer to 25k. Under employment has been a problem here for about a decade.

2. I'm very aware of what's available, but it's worthwhile to check the property price register if you can find a few sold ads. Advertised for 175k is selling for 240k by the time the bidding war is over.

Early in this discussion you said people were too fussy about where they want to live. Since COVID we've seen an influx of Dublin workers which have continued to drive up prices. You'll see from recent election boundaries that Gorey is now a suburb of Dublin.

I ask you where does that end? Dublin priced out to Wexford, Wexford priced out to Ross, where do Ross people Go? Connaught? Barbados?

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3131 - 14/11/2024 07:52:50    2579591

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I actually do and I'll explain exactly why.

1. Wexford is an economically disadvantaged area. The average salary here is actually closer to 25k. Under employment has been a problem here for about a decade.

2. I'm very aware of what's available, but it's worthwhile to check the property price register if you can find a few sold ads. Advertised for 175k is selling for 240k by the time the bidding war is over.

Early in this discussion you said people were too fussy about where they want to live. Since COVID we've seen an influx of Dublin workers which have continued to drive up prices. You'll see from recent election boundaries that Gorey is now a suburb of Dublin.

I ask you where does that end? Dublin priced out to Wexford, Wexford priced out to Ross, where do Ross people Go? Connaught? Barbados?"
Where are you getting 25k from??

The CSO shows the median salary for Wexford for 2022 to be €36'467.

And the 45k was the example used by you - so that's the figure I ran with.


Anyway, I've done what you suggested and checked the property price register and I see a 4 bed house in Rosslare sold for 150k just last week. It was in turn-key condition too.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5181 - 14/11/2024 10:20:44    2579596

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Where are you getting 25k from??

The CSO shows the median salary for Wexford for 2022 to be €36'467.

And the 45k was the example used by you - so that's the figure I ran with.


Anyway, I've done what you suggested and checked the property price register and I see a 4 bed house in Rosslare sold for 150k just last week. It was in turn-key condition too."
The 36k figure includes alot of lads working in Dublin and living in North Wexford. The median figure for South Wexford, below Enniscorthy,would be considerably less, around the figure Doyler is quoting. Many people I know, including myself, are living on less than 600 a week. If I didn't own my house outright, I don't know what I'd be doing. Rents around here where I live are 1200-1500 a week for a 4 bed house, and there aren't any houses in the price range you describe unless you are prepared to live in town, in probably a rough enough area, in a 2 bed property with the 4 children squashed into 1 bedroom.
Was in getting the tea so I did a quick search on daft.ie. there are 619 properties for sale in the whole county, only 7 of which are 3 bed for less than 150,000.
Most of these require renovation.
https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/wexford

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2024 11:07:50    2579599

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Where are you getting 25k from??

The CSO shows the median salary for Wexford for 2022 to be €36'467.

And the 45k was the example used by you - so that's the figure I ran with.


Anyway, I've done what you suggested and checked the property price register and I see a 4 bed house in Rosslare sold for 150k just last week. It was in turn-key condition too."
The 36k figure includes alot of lads working in Dublin and living in North Wexford. The median figure for South Wexford, below Enniscorthy,would be considerably less, around the figure Doyler is quoting. Many people I know, including myself, are living on less than 600 a week. If I didn't own my house outright, I don't know what I'd be doing. Rents around here where I live are 1200-1500 a week for a 4 bed house, and there aren't any houses in the price range you describe unless you are prepared to live in town, in probably a rough enough area, in a 2 bed property with the 4 children squashed into 1 bedroom.
Was in getting the tea so I did a quick search on daft.ie. there are 619 properties for sale in the whole county, only 7 of which are 3 bed for less than 150,000.
Most of these require renovation.
https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/wexford

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2024 11:08:28    2579601

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Michael O'Leary's class have run the country for 100 years. He runs a cheap airline out of state built airports! Anyone thinks he is the solution to anything other than making money for himself and providing cheap short haul flights needs to give their head a wobble!

Fair play to him by the way. He is good at what he does. Just not at running the state perhaps."
Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil have been using Michael O'Leary to make party political broadcasts on their behalf while attacking the Green Party, Environment Minister Eamon Ryan has claimed.


It appears as if he has already started work.?

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3045 - 14/11/2024 11:53:38    2579603

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When I did my solicitor prof exams in England in the 1990s, in the conveyancing paper, the standard approach for a mortgage was "2.5 times the largest salary in a household". It was considered imprudent / negligent to borrow or lend above that.

I still believe there is something structurally rotten in any country that can't provide a normal house for 2.5 times average salary.

The problem is twofold: (i) modern culture has normalised excessive prices for houses; and (ii) govts. in both Ireland and Britain are wedded to an extremist "private sector knows best" ideology which renders them psychologically incapable of implementing a programme of national house-building. They'd be horrified at the very idea - as everyone in politics knows, housing is a rotten-borough sector which exists largely for the enrichment of dodgy property developers who keep passing the brown envelopes.

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 274 - 14/11/2024 12:27:05    2579606

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Replying To Viking66:  "The 36k figure includes alot of lads working in Dublin and living in North Wexford. The median figure for South Wexford, below Enniscorthy,would be considerably less, around the figure Doyler is quoting. Many people I know, including myself, are living on less than 600 a week. If I didn't own my house outright, I don't know what I'd be doing. Rents around here where I live are 1200-1500 a week for a 4 bed house, and there aren't any houses in the price range you describe unless you are prepared to live in town, in probably a rough enough area, in a 2 bed property with the 4 children squashed into 1 bedroom.
Was in getting the tea so I did a quick search on daft.ie. there are 619 properties for sale in the whole county, only 7 of which are 3 bed for less than 150,000.
Most of these require renovation.
https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/wexford"
That should read 12-1500 a month lads, sorry about that!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2024 13:06:24    2579608

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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet:  "When I did my solicitor prof exams in England in the 1990s, in the conveyancing paper, the standard approach for a mortgage was "2.5 times the largest salary in a household". It was considered imprudent / negligent to borrow or lend above that.

I still believe there is something structurally rotten in any country that can't provide a normal house for 2.5 times average salary.

The problem is twofold: (i) modern culture has normalised excessive prices for houses; and (ii) govts. in both Ireland and Britain are wedded to an extremist "private sector knows best" ideology which renders them psychologically incapable of implementing a programme of national house-building. They'd be horrified at the very idea - as everyone in politics knows, housing is a rotten-borough sector which exists largely for the enrichment of dodgy property developers who keep passing the brown envelopes."
It makes a nice few quid for banks too who will, once they see you can make repayments, keep trying to offer you more money on your mortgage but not advise you that you may not need it. Borrowers buying new homes are better business for them than those with smaller mortgages for used properties. Plus they give the 'incentive' of giving you a few percent back on draw down, which you'll pay back, plus interest. Rather than see you'll be able to pay the mortgage, let you go with a smaller deposit, more time to get your property before the price rises, they'll hold out for full deposit, property price has gone up while you're getting that, and turn around and give you a few percent 'back'. Higher mortgage benefits the banks, the builders, government get more revenue. Irish banks, let their staff go on lunch when most customers have time to go to the bank. Send you off to another branch if you want a bank draft because they've gone cashless. Don't give a damn about customers. The customers who take their mortgages, on their terms, whose interest pay their wages.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7642 - 14/11/2024 13:20:28    2579610

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Replying To Viking66:  "The 36k figure includes alot of lads working in Dublin and living in North Wexford. The median figure for South Wexford, below Enniscorthy,would be considerably less, around the figure Doyler is quoting. Many people I know, including myself, are living on less than 600 a week. If I didn't own my house outright, I don't know what I'd be doing. Rents around here where I live are 1200-1500 a week for a 4 bed house, and there aren't any houses in the price range you describe unless you are prepared to live in town, in probably a rough enough area, in a 2 bed property with the 4 children squashed into 1 bedroom.
Was in getting the tea so I did a quick search on daft.ie. there are 619 properties for sale in the whole county, only 7 of which are 3 bed for less than 150,000.
Most of these require renovation.
https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/wexford"
"Prepared to live in town"
"Probably a rough enough area"
"Most require renovation"

You are proving my point.

I don't live in a detached house on half an acre btw. Would I like to? Yes.
Can I afford to? Only if I move location which i don't want to do.

I've cut my cloth to suit. I would expect others to do likewise.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5181 - 14/11/2024 13:38:01    2579612

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Where are you getting 25k from??

The CSO shows the median salary for Wexford for 2022 to be €36'467.

And the 45k was the example used by you - so that's the figure I ran with.


Anyway, I've done what you suggested and checked the property price register and I see a 4 bed house in Rosslare sold for 150k just last week. It was in turn-key condition too."
The CSO don't publish data in that form. The number you're looking at is the South East region. Both Waterford and Kilkenny are significantly more affluent.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3131 - 14/11/2024 15:07:49    2579617

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Replying To cavanman47:  ""Prepared to live in town"
"Probably a rough enough area"
"Most require renovation"

You are proving my point.

I don't live in a detached house on half an acre btw. Would I like to? Yes.
Can I afford to? Only if I move location which i don't want to do.

I've cut my cloth to suit. I would expect others to do likewise."
That's the thing. I life in a terraced house built by the council in 1955. I love the area. It's where a grew up but it's wrong that this is the best I could afford when I've two college degrees, a career in financial services and have worked since I was 15.

I'm also aware of how fortunate I am by comparison to others my age, but the point is this, we have a super wealthy elite here who keep getting richer.

A vulnerable class dependant on welfare who get state of the art homes with solar panels and electric car charging ports in the driveway.

Then the famous squeezed middle who are the only ones forced to cut they're cloth as you put it.

These people deserve a better deal. Not everything for nothing, but a market that serves them better than right now.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3131 - 14/11/2024 15:14:21    2579620

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Replying To cavanman47:  ""Prepared to live in town"
"Probably a rough enough area"
"Most require renovation"

You are proving my point.

I don't live in a detached house on half an acre btw. Would I like to? Yes.
Can I afford to? Only if I move location which i don't want to do.

I've cut my cloth to suit. I would expect others to do likewise."
Most require renovation to live in at all. There are only 3 of those 7 houses that are livable in as is. And they all need improvement also with really poor BERs etc.
If you think that putting up a link that shows out of 619 houses for sale in the county there are only 3 that could be remotely affordable for a person/family earning more than the median wage, and at that they would be borrowing well over 3 times their salary, is proving your point that there isn't a housing problem in this county or country, then I don't know what more can be done for your understanding of the real world. And what about the other half of the population who earn less than the median wage? I take it they don't matter in your world?
I do live in a detached house on an acre. I bought it as a derelict 2 up 2 down cottage, did it up over a few years and moved into it, then extended it when the 4 children came. I was very lucky, but then I was able to do it because I haven't had to pay rent since 1993, and chose to live in sheds and caravans for chunks of my adult life, with no running water or electricity. None of which would be reasonable for a government to expect of a young family.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13783 - 14/11/2024 15:14:34    2579621

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Replying To Viking66:  "Most require renovation to live in at all. There are only 3 of those 7 houses that are livable in as is. And they all need improvement also with really poor BERs etc.
If you think that putting up a link that shows out of 619 houses for sale in the county there are only 3 that could be remotely affordable for a person/family earning more than the median wage, and at that they would be borrowing well over 3 times their salary, is proving your point that there isn't a housing problem in this county or country, then I don't know what more can be done for your understanding of the real world. And what about the other half of the population who earn less than the median wage? I take it they don't matter in your world?
I do live in a detached house on an acre. I bought it as a derelict 2 up 2 down cottage, did it up over a few years and moved into it, then extended it when the 4 children came. I was very lucky, but then I was able to do it because I haven't had to pay rent since 1993, and chose to live in sheds and caravans for chunks of my adult life, with no running water or electricity. None of which would be reasonable for a government to expect of a young family."
What a life you've lived Viking and I'm being 100 percent sincere.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3131 - 14/11/2024 16:08:55    2579625

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "The CSO don't publish data in that form. The number you're looking at is the South East region. Both Waterford and Kilkenny are significantly more affluent."
They do.

There's an interactive map and you can click on it county by county. There's also a table that includes 2023 (where the median is up from 36k to 37k).

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cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5181 - 14/11/2024 16:45:47    2579628

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