Cavan Forum

Cavan Seniors 23

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Replying To breffnibluewhite:  "its only in the past 5 years or so that their minors and under 21 have really started to challenge so some thing has drastically changed there either brilliant mentors and coaching and a complete change in mindset, The standard of their club football is also way ahead of Cavan and they seem to have at least one team from either senior intermediate or junior club final in the uslter final each year. Hard to know why have they less clubs they are hardy bucks and seem much more committed than our lads. Have they now two teams playing in the mcrory cup i think carrickmacross also play at this level along with mccartens which is a big help to their minors."
Monaghan never had the underage success that we had this past 15 years.
But with all our 4 Ulster winning u 21 sides we never developed a match winning forward.
We still relied on Johnston , Mackey And Dunne .
So what does that tell you about developing players.

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 28/06/2023 08:38:26    2490311

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Lads. . .why the comparisons with Monaghan?

Sure, they're going well this year but they've rode their luck something serious too.

They haven't won Ulster in 8 years now and we've beaten them the last 2 times we've met in the championship.

We've also won Ulster in the meantime and didn't need home advantage in the final to do so.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5200 - 28/06/2023 11:11:10    2490364

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Lads. . .why the comparisons with Monaghan?

Sure, they're going well this year but they've rode their luck something serious too.

They haven't won Ulster in 8 years now and we've beaten them the last 2 times we've met in the championship.

We've also won Ulster in the meantime and didn't need home advantage in the final to do so."
It's overall bigger picture not just one one year. Their school teams are performing better then Cavan. minor team is an All Ireland Minor final. Senior team has stayed in Division 1 for 10 years with a small population.

They get the most out of what they have

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2832 - 28/06/2023 12:09:43    2490384

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We don't have the benefit of the profit from DP centres

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12216 - 28/06/2023 12:31:43    2490396

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "It's overall bigger picture not just one one year. Their school teams are performing better then Cavan. minor team is an All Ireland Minor final. Senior team has stayed in Division 1 for 10 years with a small population.

They get the most out of what they have"
They get the most out of what they have…. That's print the best way to sum them up. And nobody can ask for any more than that.

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 28/06/2023 12:43:58    2490401

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We have not answered the question why have they suddenly in the past few years punched well above their weight i think they were in 4 ulster finals in a row winning 2. The future should be bright with good minor teams for the past 5 years and in a couple of under 21 finals. what has caused this transformation from whipping boys like Cavan at under age to contenders for silverware each year.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 479 - 28/06/2023 14:17:09    2490428

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Its an interesting topic. I find in Cavan there is a despise of the development squad and county structures and appetite. In monaghan we have 14 year olds chomping at the bit to get on development squads. From what I hear and see the coaches and the training of underage coaches is next to none. Also we have cloghan which is a state of the art facility, you have minor lads going out to train and in the next room to them is conor mc manus togging out, it seems to be forming a cult, I dont know if Cavan have a facility like this or not??

As for the schools, we have a lot of county level coaches involved in many structures in the school development grades.

monaghanmad (Monaghan) - Posts: 398 - 28/06/2023 14:23:42    2490430

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Lads. . .why the comparisons with Monaghan?

Sure, they're going well this year but they've rode their luck something serious too.

They haven't won Ulster in 8 years now and we've beaten them the last 2 times we've met in the championship.

We've also won Ulster in the meantime and didn't need home advantage in the final to do so."
great to see my question has raised a proper discussion on this thread and not petty squabbling.
the reason for the comparison being Monaghan is that they are our closest comparable size wise competing in Ulster. i had stated in my question that we have won a Anglo Celt cup since they did but it is naïve in the extreme to think that we are operating at the same level as them consistently at any grade.
consensus here appears to be that they are benefitting from:
1. better coaching at underage level through their development squads
2. more games at underage level
3. more determination on & off the field by players and supporters (agree)
so what steps do posters here feel appropriate to rectify the above and how to implement them. remember this is not a quick fix and could take years to reap rewards

bond (Longford) - Posts: 174 - 28/06/2023 18:09:37    2490496

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Replying To Breffni1969:  "You have to hand it to Down for having the courage to change their style of play. They realised the " manure" they were playing was getting them nowhere and since they became more direct they have become a far better team.
When will we learn? Or will we ever.
All 4 teams in the Tailteann semis played direct football , why would we spoil that with the type of manure we play???"
I dont think they have changed their style of play at all. They persistently tried to engineer goals against us in the league but messed up a fair few times and were turned over on other occasions by good defending. They are still trying to engineer goals but they are further down the line in their strength and conditioning and their speed . They are fitter than they were earlier in the year so can play at a higher tempo (this was evident against us in the Tailtean). We seemed to be playing at the same pace the whole year.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5520 - 28/06/2023 20:01:22    2490515

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Replying To bond:  "great to see my question has raised a proper discussion on this thread and not petty squabbling.
the reason for the comparison being Monaghan is that they are our closest comparable size wise competing in Ulster. i had stated in my question that we have won a Anglo Celt cup since they did but it is naïve in the extreme to think that we are operating at the same level as them consistently at any grade.
consensus here appears to be that they are benefitting from:
1. better coaching at underage level through their development squads
2. more games at underage level
3. more determination on & off the field by players and supporters (agree)
so what steps do posters here feel appropriate to rectify the above and how to implement them. remember this is not a quick fix and could take years to reap rewards"
Go for a quick fix get rid of current games development manager and put in some one with a bith of drive. Everything else will fall into place. Suprisingly even though Monaghan are way ahead of us at underage level they are the one team in ulster that Cavan teams face in the proper frame of mind ie we feel we can beat them no matter how we are playing or how well they are playing and thats why games between us are all on the day and very hard to call. Alot of it is in the mind whereas against Tyrone we are beaten as soon as the draw is made.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 479 - 28/06/2023 20:15:03    2490518

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The impression given by players and maybe I'm wrong is " I've got my Ulster Championship medal, I probably won't get or don't need another 1 and a Tailteann Cup medal won't make me up"
This can clearly be seen by the level of intensity we show in games .
Until we are prepared to " die" for the cause and put our bodies on the line like Monaghan did last weekend and the great Kilkenny and Dublin teams of the past did year in year out we are going to be known as 1 hit wonders.
Back in the 90s we had great leaders in King, Morris , Damien O Reilly , Caralon, Cahill . Lads who would go through a stone wall . Very unlucky not to win in 95 as well as 97.
We don't have that kinda player nowadays.
Even at club level back in the day winners like the Gaels, Kingscourt, Gowna, Mullahoran all had these type of leaders in abundance .
That's the major problem. Leaders.

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 29/06/2023 08:57:25    2490557

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Replying To breffnibluewhite:  "We have not answered the question why have they suddenly in the past few years punched well above their weight i think they were in 4 ulster finals in a row winning 2. The future should be bright with good minor teams for the past 5 years and in a couple of under 21 finals. what has caused this transformation from whipping boys like Cavan at under age to contenders for silverware each year."
I answered it

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12216 - 29/06/2023 12:15:32    2490607

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Replying To Breffni40:  "I answered it"
you replied we dont have the benefit of profit from DP centres what a great reply so thats why our under age teams are not competitive why did you not reveal this to us before what ever it means i pass it on too breffni park and hopefully we will win an ulster minor title next year.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 479 - 29/06/2023 12:55:27    2490614

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The biggest problem in Cavan football is the overall attitude towards football in this county. It's been seeping in for the past 2 decades. We think we're a huge county but in reality we are not. An attitude has developed with players in this county over the past 2 decades that getting onto a Cavan panel is the be all and end all of everything, if you get called into a panel you've made it, you've achieved the goal. The players themselves aren't alone in the blame of this. It's everyone in the county, the clubs, the supporters, the families, the media etc. If a young fella kicks 0-3 in minor challenge match he's treated as if he's just won an all star. We need to wipe the slate clean and start from the very beginning. If your nephew makes a county panel don't tell him he's the best thing that has ever existed, say good man, keep up the hard work, there's a lot you could achieve. We are a football mad county, 95% of young lads in this county will play football from a young age, it's inevitable that we will produce talented players but until the attitude changes the results on the field won't either.

IamADragon (Cavan) - Posts: 306 - 29/06/2023 13:36:33    2490629

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Tyrone and a few of the Northern Counties play knockout in their club championship. The Club League in Tyrone dictates where the club plays the following year in championship.
Cavan league is rushed off with County players maybe playing 1 or 2 games after the county team is knocked out

There was a long break last year from when the Cavan teams played in Cavan championship until they played in Ulster m I think Castlerahan were waiting 5 weeks.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2832 - 29/06/2023 14:40:00    2490650

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Replying To breffnibluewhite:  "you replied we dont have the benefit of profit from DP centres what a great reply so thats why our under age teams are not competitive why did you not reveal this to us before what ever it means i pass it on too breffni park and hopefully we will win an ulster minor title next year."
I'm sorry my answer wasn't what you wanted to hear

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12216 - 29/06/2023 15:09:00    2490667

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Replying To IamADragon:  "The biggest problem in Cavan football is the overall attitude towards football in this county. It's been seeping in for the past 2 decades. We think we're a huge county but in reality we are not. An attitude has developed with players in this county over the past 2 decades that getting onto a Cavan panel is the be all and end all of everything, if you get called into a panel you've made it, you've achieved the goal. The players themselves aren't alone in the blame of this. It's everyone in the county, the clubs, the supporters, the families, the media etc. If a young fella kicks 0-3 in minor challenge match he's treated as if he's just won an all star. We need to wipe the slate clean and start from the very beginning. If your nephew makes a county panel don't tell him he's the best thing that has ever existed, say good man, keep up the hard work, there's a lot you could achieve. We are a football mad county, 95% of young lads in this county will play football from a young age, it's inevitable that we will produce talented players but until the attitude changes the results on the field won't either."
Correct.

This is the literal truth. The attitude in the county is all wrong. Like someone mentioned earlier, whenever a draw is made and we draw Tyrone, we are beaten straight away.

And the attitude has been there for a lot longer than 2 decades.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 29/06/2023 15:22:04    2490672

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Replying To IamADragon:  "The biggest problem in Cavan football is the overall attitude towards football in this county. It's been seeping in for the past 2 decades. We think we're a huge county but in reality we are not. An attitude has developed with players in this county over the past 2 decades that getting onto a Cavan panel is the be all and end all of everything, if you get called into a panel you've made it, you've achieved the goal. The players themselves aren't alone in the blame of this. It's everyone in the county, the clubs, the supporters, the families, the media etc. If a young fella kicks 0-3 in minor challenge match he's treated as if he's just won an all star. We need to wipe the slate clean and start from the very beginning. If your nephew makes a county panel don't tell him he's the best thing that has ever existed, say good man, keep up the hard work, there's a lot you could achieve. We are a football mad county, 95% of young lads in this county will play football from a young age, it's inevitable that we will produce talented players but until the attitude changes the results on the field won't either."
What we need is unbiased & strong coaches, coaches who are not influenced by outsiders , coaches who are not swayed by what school the young lads come from, what club they're from, whose their father, mother, uncle, aunt etc. may be.
Some players are earmarked at U14 for future U17 teams and are looked after from that age to the effect that they don't have to fight for their place. When we start playing the best players we might actually start winning.

aceofspades (Cavan) - Posts: 257 - 29/06/2023 15:49:55    2490683

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Replying To s goldrick:  "I dont think they have changed their style of play at all. They persistently tried to engineer goals against us in the league but messed up a fair few times and were turned over on other occasions by good defending. They are still trying to engineer goals but they are further down the line in their strength and conditioning and their speed . They are fitter than they were earlier in the year so can play at a higher tempo (this was evident against us in the Tailtean). We seemed to be playing at the same pace the whole year."
Their style has changed big time since they played us in the league as soon as they lost the ball or had a score or wide in that game they all immediately retreated inside thier own 45 and when they gained possession again they tried to hand pass it up the field into the Cavan goal look how much kick passing they did in Croke park on sunday and speed at which they transitioned from defence to attack.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 479 - 29/06/2023 22:02:42    2490746

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Replying To monaghanmad:  "Its an interesting topic. I find in Cavan there is a despise of the development squad and county structures and appetite. In monaghan we have 14 year olds chomping at the bit to get on development squads. From what I hear and see the coaches and the training of underage coaches is next to none. Also we have cloghan which is a state of the art facility, you have minor lads going out to train and in the next room to them is conor mc manus togging out, it seems to be forming a cult, I dont know if Cavan have a facility like this or not??

As for the schools, we have a lot of county level coaches involved in many structures in the school development grades."
In my opinion development squads are overrated , the majority of players develop most when they start to play senior club football , Conor McManus never played under-age football for Monaghan , he developed his own game . Truth is, a lot of these development coaches try to develop a team rather than encourage players to be individual ,play to their own strengths and not be afraid to take risks .

tenyearplan (Cavan) - Posts: 147 - 29/06/2023 23:23:21    2490752

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