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Cavan Seniors 2022

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Foreverblue2 I'll be looking out for you on Primetime tonight

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12216 - 21/07/2022 12:01:12    2433327

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "If people listened to you, then Padraig Joyce wouldn't be leading Galway into an All-Ireland Final this weekend.
Look at his record before this year, the like's of you would have been calling for his head.
As Joyce said, lose one match and people will be looking for you to go.

Supporters like you think we have the same calibre of players as they do in Dublin and Kerry. The fact is we dont, we have good players but they are not top class players, yet Mickey has made them more competitive than any manager has done in Cavan in 30 years. Reaching two Ulster Final in a 5 year tenure is nothing short of remarkable given what went before him.
People talk about Terry and Matty in Division One, the reason we reached Division One was because the majority of teams in those Division's were breaking in new blood whilst Cavan were fielding first team players in every match. Matty or Terry could barely win an opening championship match. Yes, we got demoted under Graham, but he didnt mind, he used the league to blood new players and you can see the improvement in those players.

We could get Mickey Moran, Mickey Harte or Jim Gavin into manage Cavan but the fact is, the calibre of player isnt there, and no doubt after a few losses, you'll be calling for their heads too!"
And if Mickey does chose to move on, you can be sure he'll be successful elsewhere too.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12216 - 21/07/2022 12:03:02    2433329

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Foreverblue2 I'll be looking out for you on Primetime tonight"
You will be looking too… you have a fondness for wasting your time… lol

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3057 - 21/07/2022 12:58:19    2433353

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "maybe have a look at the Celt this week.....celebrating the 1997 Ulster Final win....to put that in perspective, Cavan didnt win another Ulster Final until 2020, under Mickey Graham.

Joyce took over Galway in 2019, yet was beaten in two Connaught Finals in 2020 and 2021 - they were also mauled by Kerry by 22 points in the league in May 2021 and relegated to Division 2. Should he have been sacked then? 3 years in charge, lost 2 provincial finals and relegated to Division 2.

So if Galway dont beat Kerry on Sunday, does that make Joyce a failure once again....I suppose in your eyes, it will....."
No crime in been relegated to Division 2…. It's when you drop to Division 3 and then Division 4 it really highlights the deficiencies a manager would have… Joyce never had that embarrassment on his CV..

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3057 - 21/07/2022 13:02:09    2433357

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Foreverblue2 I'll be looking out for you on Primetime tonight"
You will be looking too… you have a fondness for wasting your time… lol

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3057 - 21/07/2022 13:03:16    2433358

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Replying To Breffni40:  "And if Mickey does chose to move on, you can be sure he'll be successful elsewhere too."
He certainly will if bringing a team from Div 1 to 4 can be gauged as some sort of success… !!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3057 - 21/07/2022 15:23:25    2433402

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "No crime in been relegated to Division 2…. It's when you drop to Division 3 and then Division 4 it really highlights the deficiencies a manager would have… Joyce never had that embarrassment on his CV.."
What about losing 2 Connaught Finals in 2 years? and the 20 odd point thumping by Kerry that got them relegated?

cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 21/07/2022 15:40:44    2433410

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "What about losing 2 Connaught Finals in 2 years? and the 20 odd point thumping by Kerry that got them relegated?"
Hardly in the same league as been relegated to Division 4 …. and imagine the current Cavan team playing Kerry…? Ouch…we would be happy with a 20 point defeat…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3057 - 21/07/2022 15:49:25    2433414

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We need to get back to playing at least Div 2 football regularly. Nothing is going to improve until we improve the quality of opposition and start competing with that quality.
Many a Manager would be ran out the gate taking a team from Div 1 to 4 in consecutive years. And rightly so.
It's a lot more difficult to get back up the Divisions.
Mickeys saving grace was 2020 Ulster win. But that's history now.
If he stays he needs to win Promotion to Div 2 .
If he goes what's the alternative? Terry 16men behind the ball Hyland?
Give me strength!

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 21/07/2022 17:57:38    2433445

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Replying To Breffni1969:  "We need to get back to playing at least Div 2 football regularly. Nothing is going to improve until we improve the quality of opposition and start competing with that quality.
Many a Manager would be ran out the gate taking a team from Div 1 to 4 in consecutive years. And rightly so.
It's a lot more difficult to get back up the Divisions.
Mickeys saving grace was 2020 Ulster win. But that's history now.
If he stays he needs to win Promotion to Div 2 .
If he goes what's the alternative? Terry 16men behind the ball Hyland?
Give me strength!"
This is the thing, there is no real alternative.

At the end of the day, we have one USFC title since 1997, this is a systemic issue in Cavan football, a new manager isn't going to fix a broken system. A proper root and brach reform was needed a long time ago. It is perplexing that a county that prides itself on being "football mad" can't even compete regularly in their own province and are usually considered also-rans.

I mean in 6 of Ulsters 9 counties a massive portion of the popultation don't identify with GAA. Other counties might have major soccer clubs to compete with. In Cavan we have neiher of these problems, but yet we rarely contend for our province.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 22/07/2022 12:16:46    2433518

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Replying To Ned_Stormcrow:  "This is the thing, there is no real alternative.

At the end of the day, we have one USFC title since 1997, this is a systemic issue in Cavan football, a new manager isn't going to fix a broken system. A proper root and brach reform was needed a long time ago. It is perplexing that a county that prides itself on being "football mad" can't even compete regularly in their own province and are usually considered also-rans.

I mean in 6 of Ulsters 9 counties a massive portion of the popultation don't identify with GAA. Other counties might have major soccer clubs to compete with. In Cavan we have neiher of these problems, but yet we rarely contend for our province."
Agree to an extent . But we won 4 and competed in 5 u21 finals between 2010-2014.
There must have been at least 100 players tried at Senior level since from those 5 teams.
We're they tried too soon? We're they discarded too quickly after a few bad games? Lots lost interest. Why? Was it the system being played? Or the commitment involved? Surely 1 Ulster title in 2020 is a poor enough return for the underage success we had? So many of these lads should be in their prime now.
Take Kerry for example . Few years ago they won minor all irelands in a row now competing in Senior final.
Did we get the best return from our u21 winning squads.?

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 22/07/2022 13:35:10    2433534

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Kerry were winning Minor All Irelands. Cavan were just winning Ulster. Kerry have always produced outstanding forwards. There wasn't any top forwards from the cavabu21 teams. the system held them back to exten,t but they weren't top forwards like Kerry were producing, Clifford. Seanie O Shea.

Barry a Reilly was a brilliant player but couldn't to County football

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2832 - 22/07/2022 14:29:30    2433552

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Replying To Breffni1969:  "Agree to an extent . But we won 4 and competed in 5 u21 finals between 2010-2014.
There must have been at least 100 players tried at Senior level since from those 5 teams.
We're they tried too soon? We're they discarded too quickly after a few bad games? Lots lost interest. Why? Was it the system being played? Or the commitment involved? Surely 1 Ulster title in 2020 is a poor enough return for the underage success we had? So many of these lads should be in their prime now.
Take Kerry for example . Few years ago they won minor all irelands in a row now competing in Senior final.
Did we get the best return from our u21 winning squads.?"
We were different than the big teams in that we had one of the worst Senior teams back then that we ever had. We had no choice but to move those lads into the seniors quickly. I remember there was a senior league match back in the year Hyland took over, I think it was between the Ulster Final and AI semi and we had to play U21s as we were in such deperate straits to win to avoid relegation - and we did. Kerry are different, there senior team is always strong, They can take their time and drop one or two lads in when they are physically able. A better comparison is what will Offaly do, a poor senior team but some great young players. They will have to blood them early too and they will struggle just like we did.
The biggest crime in Cavan was taking our eye completely off the underage ball and not having a good conveyor line of young players coming through after that 4 in a row and minor win.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1485 - 22/07/2022 14:39:17    2433557

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Replying To fredflint:  "We were different than the big teams in that we had one of the worst Senior teams back then that we ever had. We had no choice but to move those lads into the seniors quickly. I remember there was a senior league match back in the year Hyland took over, I think it was between the Ulster Final and AI semi and we had to play U21s as we were in such deperate straits to win to avoid relegation - and we did. Kerry are different, there senior team is always strong, They can take their time and drop one or two lads in when they are physically able. A better comparison is what will Offaly do, a poor senior team but some great young players. They will have to blood them early too and they will struggle just like we did.
The biggest crime in Cavan was taking our eye completely off the underage ball and not having a good conveyor line of young players coming through after that 4 in a row and minor win."
Fredflint yes I hear what your saying about having a poor Senior team to blend these young u21 into but there has been a serious drop off down through the years. Most lads invited in played at some stage( be it even I game or a short time) but left for reasons only known to themselves .
If we even blended 1/2 from u20/21s each year you would have some sort of a conveyer belt of talent coming through.
Very very few forwards came through and were persivered with from 2011-2014 teams.
I know 1 particular decent forward not 2011-2014 who said he wasn't interested in the style of football being played from 2012-2015.
At the end of the day the player has to be enjoying it ( the style played) or what's the point

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 22/07/2022 15:45:00    2433575

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There is a always a fall of from underage. Galway hammered Cavan in the U21 final in 2011l but none from that team are on the current Galway Senior team, or the current panel. A few like Tom Flynn, Danny Cummins were on the panel for a while but never made a big impact.

The Galway u21 team from 13 also won the All Ireland, , Shane Walsh, Comer went on and established themselves as top County players. Ian Burke was on that team too.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2832 - 22/07/2022 16:41:18    2433586

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I said it at the time and I will say it again…. The type of football and system we had that 4 in a row U-21 team playing was deplorable…. It was all about winning with the management team but they stifled any chances of us producing forwards for the seniors with that negative style of play and it came back to hurt us big time…. Tyrone got far more out of loosing 2 finals than we did out of winning 4…. It was a competition that young players should have been allowed express themselves but instead we put them in straight jackets and they never got out.. It's a competition nobody really ever cared about and was used by the wise to develop players… We did that with our teams in 95/6 under McHugh and got far more out of it…. Hyland and then Peter Reilly imposed a negative mindset on their U-21 teams and it followed through to senior level leading to this turgid slow build up muck we still see today…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3057 - 22/07/2022 16:49:33    2433589

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Replying To fredflint:  "We were different than the big teams in that we had one of the worst Senior teams back then that we ever had. We had no choice but to move those lads into the seniors quickly. I remember there was a senior league match back in the year Hyland took over, I think it was between the Ulster Final and AI semi and we had to play U21s as we were in such deperate straits to win to avoid relegation - and we did. Kerry are different, there senior team is always strong, They can take their time and drop one or two lads in when they are physically able. A better comparison is what will Offaly do, a poor senior team but some great young players. They will have to blood them early too and they will struggle just like we did.
The biggest crime in Cavan was taking our eye completely off the underage ball and not having a good conveyor line of young players coming through after that 4 in a row and minor win."
And they try to tell you that Hyland didn't blood any young players through the league on the way to division 1??? Not only did he blood the backbone of the 2020 winning team , it was also he who converted the captain of that same team from a forward into an All Star goalkeeper.It's the small margins that can define a managers tenure, Beggan's 13 steps, Ryan Connolly hitting the post, Maddens dubious penalty award , McManus missing a 30 meter free in front of the posts, small margins. Our underage structure is a mess and it seems that it's teachers in a certain college which define the structures of our county teams and not our coaches or management.IMHO the biggest loss to Cavan football was Nicholas Walsh he did a lot of very good work underage and maybe more than most was responsible for our U21 successes.

aceofspades (Cavan) - Posts: 257 - 22/07/2022 16:49:40    2433590

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Replying To Breffni1969:  "Fredflint yes I hear what your saying about having a poor Senior team to blend these young u21 into but there has been a serious drop off down through the years. Most lads invited in played at some stage( be it even I game or a short time) but left for reasons only known to themselves .
If we even blended 1/2 from u20/21s each year you would have some sort of a conveyer belt of talent coming through.
Very very few forwards came through and were persivered with from 2011-2014 teams.
I know 1 particular decent forward not 2011-2014 who said he wasn't interested in the style of football being played from 2012-2015.
At the end of the day the player has to be enjoying it ( the style played) or what's the point"
Do you think many of the current squad enjoyed playing Division 4 this year against the Londons and Waterfords etc or would they rather have played the Kerry' and Dublins of this world in Division 1.It's easy for players to give the excuse of not enjoying the style of play than to say they don't want to put in the hard yards and give it their total committment . I also know of a decent forward who was there in Hylands time but left, was called back by Graham but left again, maybe he just didn't enjoy either styles, who knows.

aceofspades (Cavan) - Posts: 257 - 22/07/2022 17:03:02    2433597

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "If people listened to you, then Padraig Joyce wouldn't be leading Galway into an All-Ireland Final this weekend.
Look at his record before this year, the like's of you would have been calling for his head.
As Joyce said, lose one match and people will be looking for you to go.

Supporters like you think we have the same calibre of players as they do in Dublin and Kerry. The fact is we dont, we have good players but they are not top class players, yet Mickey has made them more competitive than any manager has done in Cavan in 30 years. Reaching two Ulster Final in a 5 year tenure is nothing short of remarkable given what went before him.
People talk about Terry and Matty in Division One, the reason we reached Division One was because the majority of teams in those Division's were breaking in new blood whilst Cavan were fielding first team players in every match. Matty or Terry could barely win an opening championship match. Yes, we got demoted under Graham, but he didnt mind, he used the league to blood new players and you can see the improvement in those players.

We could get Mickey Moran, Mickey Harte or Jim Gavin into manage Cavan but the fact is, the calibre of player isnt there, and no doubt after a few losses, you'll be calling for their heads too!"
As has been said already Hyland blooded near a whole new squad of players in his first couple of years . Who are all these new players Graham has brought into the system in his 4 years in charge? In fairness he has a fondness for blooding young corner backs in major championship games .

aceofspades (Cavan) - Posts: 257 - 22/07/2022 17:10:11    2433599

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Replying To Breffni1969:  "Fredflint yes I hear what your saying about having a poor Senior team to blend these young u21 into but there has been a serious drop off down through the years. Most lads invited in played at some stage( be it even I game or a short time) but left for reasons only known to themselves .
If we even blended 1/2 from u20/21s each year you would have some sort of a conveyer belt of talent coming through.
Very very few forwards came through and were persivered with from 2011-2014 teams.
I know 1 particular decent forward not 2011-2014 who said he wasn't interested in the style of football being played from 2012-2015.
At the end of the day the player has to be enjoying it ( the style played) or what's the point"
Yeah I think the style of play didn't help things around that time. Cavan were trying to adopt the ultra defensive template that Tyrone had developed, and that Donegal took to extremes in 2011/12. The problem was the game was already beginning to move on from that era.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 22/07/2022 18:40:11    2433607

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