Cavan Forum

National League 2019

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Replying To blueman1903:  "I wouldn't be concerned I think cavan are making progress,we are after playing probably 3 of the top 5 teams, Gerry smith will be back the next game, gearoid mckiernan and caoimhin reilly back training this week and Killian brady will have more training under his belt, all the talk about mcgleenan he had them lads playing from the beginning in div 1, if Mickey had to have them we would be on 6 points now."
You have got to be joking Mayo and Galway including Kerry were three teams that we were expecting a point from each. You will get nothing from whats left and I don't care who are coming back but please prove me wrong I will be happy to admit I got it wrong.
McGlennnan brought the team to Division 2 and right back to Division1 if you are a true supporter of Cavan you will have to admit this that he left Cavan in a good position. Players that did not want to play for the two Tyrone men were very few, one needs to look away from these two men and ask WHY.
Smith took a year out for studies.
Reilly played with Mattie
Killian Brady played with Mattie
McKiernan played with Mattie
Phillips played with Mattie

So what players currently out from the gaels lads played for Mattie.

It would be a brave man to say that Cavan will avoid relegation to division 2 even with three matches left.
Mayo 6
Kerry 6
Galway 4
Roscommon 3
Monaghan 2
Dublin 2
Tyrone 1
Cavan 0

Cavan have to play Roscommon Tyrone Dublin

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 10/02/2019 16:08:26    2164062

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "22 years since we won a provincial title, and fifty years since we consistently challenged for Ulster.

You call for patience.

Tell me, how much longer should we wait? A decade? Twenty years? Forty years?

I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely debating in good faith."
Could you outline the other options we have apart from waiting?

Inactive x5 (Cavan) - Posts: 1452 - 10/02/2019 16:16:33    2164067

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Replying To JonSmith:  "Could you outline the other options we have apart from waiting?"
Sure, no problem. Here's two for example.

1. Downscale the number of clubs. - Too many clubs for a small playing population dilutes the talent pool available to any one club. This lowers the standard of football produced in the county.

2. Tell coaches in the county to focus more on forward play at underage level. We haven't produced an out and out forward since Johnston, the coaching has to be looked at.

Both will of course, take time, which means waiting. But this is a better option than persisting with a tried and failed system....they call that insanity.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 10/02/2019 16:42:31    2164095

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Replying To MadgeKing:  "I would make that JOR as the last top class Cavan forward, but your point is valid.
Look Cavan have played 2 top teams in their opening 3 matches. Galway the one that got away.
All that matters now is getting 6 points on the board.
Beat Roscommon tyrone and monaghan to stay up?? I believe that is possible. But yeah the forwards have to show a lot more than last night"
Johnston has been the best Cavan forward if the last 20 years.
The sad thing is if he was fit he'd still be on the team at 34 years old.
It don't say much for Terry 21 s forwards of a few years ago.
But for the last 10 years forward play wasn't allowed in Cavan . And we suffering for it now.

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 10/02/2019 16:47:53    2164100

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Sure, no problem. Here's two for example.

1. Downscale the number of clubs. - Too many clubs for a small playing population dilutes the talent pool available to any one club. This lowers the standard of football produced in the county.

2. Tell coaches in the county to focus more on forward play at underage level. We haven't produced an out and out forward since Johnston, the coaching has to be looked at.

Both will of course, take time, which means waiting. But this is a better option than persisting with a tried and failed system....they call that insanity."
JonSmith off course there is a far better option that is bring in the best players in the county and treat them with respect. Look after them and help them secure jobs and even getting a decent education. Don't bring them in because they came through the development system bring them in for their quality quietness strength and ability. Don't bring them in because of who daddy or mammy are or who their grandparents are or were ?? bring them in on pure merit. If this is adopted things will change but as it stands Cavan are going to struggle.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 10/02/2019 16:55:17    2164112

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Replying To Inaroundehouse:  "Johnston has been the best Cavan forward if the last 20 years.
The sad thing is if he was fit he'd still be on the team at 34 years old.
It don't say much for Terry 21 s forwards of a few years ago.
But for the last 10 years forward play wasn't allowed in Cavan . And we suffering for it now."
No he's not. Tell me one season he lit up the championship. It's a myth. One game as a sub against Wicklow does not make the best forward in 20 years.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1485 - 10/02/2019 17:47:27    2164141

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Tyrone made the All Ireland Final last year and have one point from 3. I don't see them panicking.
I really don't see what people are expecting. When any manager comes in it takes time. Graham has openly said his priority is the Championship. On form for the last decade, we are 10 in the country for the League but 20 for the championship. In 2013, we were loitering in Division 3 but a run to an All Ireland Quarter Final through the back door and that was soon forgotten about.
It's not unusual for teams to bounce up and down between Division 1 and 2. One things for sure, I've been to two Division 2 games and we're experiencing a far higher level of football in Division One. That can only stand to the team.
Give the managers and the players a bit of time.
Some of you may be waiting 40/50 years but that is hardly the current panels fault.

BreffniGuide (Cavan) - Posts: 474 - 10/02/2019 17:50:20    2164142

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Sure, no problem. Here's two for example.

1. Downscale the number of clubs. - Too many clubs for a small playing population dilutes the talent pool available to any one club. This lowers the standard of football produced in the county.

2. Tell coaches in the county to focus more on forward play at underage level. We haven't produced an out and out forward since Johnston, the coaching has to be looked at.

Both will of course, take time, which means waiting. But this is a better option than persisting with a tried and failed system....they call that insanity."
How do you downsize the number of clubs exactly? What do Cavan County Board do in the morning to downsize the number of clubs?

Your second point is about as general as they come, 'look at the coaching' isn't a plan really. What do you know about the coaching as it is and how does it need to be changed to produce better forwards?

Inactive x5 (Cavan) - Posts: 1452 - 10/02/2019 17:54:08    2164145

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Replying To JonSmith:  "How do you downsize the number of clubs exactly? What do Cavan County Board do in the morning to downsize the number of clubs?

Your second point is about as general as they come, 'look at the coaching' isn't a plan really. What do you know about the coaching as it is and how does it need to be changed to produce better forwards?"
I think that has been looked at and forwards are been produced, Oisin Pierson, Cian madden, Conor smith, caoimhin reilly.

blueman1903 (Cavan) - Posts: 885 - 10/02/2019 18:18:14    2164169

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Replying To blueman1903:  "I think that has been looked at and forwards are been produced, Oisin Pierson, Cian madden, Conor smith, caoimhin reilly."
martin dunne was a good scoring forward, so was eugene keating. what happened to them ?

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5520 - 10/02/2019 18:39:16    2164176

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Replying To JonSmith:  "How do you downsize the number of clubs exactly? What do Cavan County Board do in the morning to downsize the number of clubs?

Your second point is about as general as they come, 'look at the coaching' isn't a plan really. What do you know about the coaching as it is and how does it need to be changed to produce better forwards?"
Forced amalgamation at senior level, based on a detailed demographic analysis of population centres. It's not that difficult, the hard part is convincing clubs of the greater benefits. There will always be the intransigent inward looking people allergic to change, but the alternative is to carry on as is, and as I said, I'm not particularly enjoying this fifty year GAA famine.

On the second point, it might necessitate looking at how successful counties develop their underage, particularly Dublin and Kerry and copy that template. But point two is futile unless point one is addressed. A blind man can see that scoring forwards are our achilles heal for the past decade. Prior to this it was a shambolic defence. We've fixed our defence successfully, time to focus on the other end of the field now.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 10/02/2019 18:46:40    2164177

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Replying To blueman1903:  "I think that has been looked at and forwards are been produced, Oisin Pierson, Cian madden, Conor smith, caoimhin reilly."
I hope those players develop into a scoring forward unit, but right now it's just potential they have.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 10/02/2019 18:47:38    2164180

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Replying To BreffniGuide:  "Tyrone made the All Ireland Final last year and have one point from 3. I don't see them panicking.
I really don't see what people are expecting. When any manager comes in it takes time. Graham has openly said his priority is the Championship. On form for the last decade, we are 10 in the country for the League but 20 for the championship. In 2013, we were loitering in Division 3 but a run to an All Ireland Quarter Final through the back door and that was soon forgotten about.
It's not unusual for teams to bounce up and down between Division 1 and 2. One things for sure, I've been to two Division 2 games and we're experiencing a far higher level of football in Division One. That can only stand to the team.
Give the managers and the players a bit of time.
Some of you may be waiting 40/50 years but that is hardly the current panels fault."
Strange reply Mattie got relegated and came right back up and everyone wanted his head so why not look for the heads of the present management 3 losses so far in the league and more than likely three more to follow. How can any county board that have their county team in Division 1 give a new manager the okay to concentrate on the championship and forget the league if this is true we as supporters have been betrayed and cheated plain and simple. I don't believe that they allowed this to be ratified if yes they should all resign in block. But I fear this did not happen they would never be that stupid would they???

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 10/02/2019 18:49:22    2164182

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Replying To s goldrick:  "martin dunne was a good scoring forward, so was eugene keating. what happened to them ?"
Gibney would be a good help,but based in London. Johnston and Givney linked well when Cavan got promoted to Div 1 in 2016. McKiernan had a free roll on the 40. There was a good structure to the attack.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2832 - 10/02/2019 19:20:08    2164215

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Forced amalgamation at senior level, based on a detailed demographic analysis of population centres. It's not that difficult, the hard part is convincing clubs of the greater benefits. There will always be the intransigent inward looking people allergic to change, but the alternative is to carry on as is, and as I said, I'm not particularly enjoying this fifty year GAA famine.

On the second point, it might necessitate looking at how successful counties develop their underage, particularly Dublin and Kerry and copy that template. But point two is futile unless point one is addressed. A blind man can see that scoring forwards are our achilles heal for the past decade. Prior to this it was a shambolic defence. We've fixed our defence successfully, time to focus on the other end of the field now."
You can't force amalgamations. The clubs need to vote for it. The clubs don't exist to serve the county team! Look at the counties that have made resurgences in recent years, Roscommon and Monaghan most notably, haven't tore up the fabric of their club scene to try produce more county footballers. We are not Kerry and we don't need to try to be Kerry, we don't need amalgamations. It's been attempted and it didn't work.

We just had the best Senior Championship in years. Our intermediate champions reached the Ulster final. There is no "GAA famine" in Cavan. There's a Senior Intetcounty trophy famine. I'd love it to end as much as the next man but let's keep things in perspective.

You completely avoided my second question and went straight to copying Kerry and Dublin. So I'll ask again, what exactly is wrong with current coaching in Cavan from your own experience. And how does it need to change?

Inactive x5 (Cavan) - Posts: 1452 - 10/02/2019 19:24:01    2164219

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Replying To JonSmith:  "You can't force amalgamations. The clubs need to vote for it. The clubs don't exist to serve the county team! Look at the counties that have made resurgences in recent years, Roscommon and Monaghan most notably, haven't tore up the fabric of their club scene to try produce more county footballers. We are not Kerry and we don't need to try to be Kerry, we don't need amalgamations. It's been attempted and it didn't work.

We just had the best Senior Championship in years. Our intermediate champions reached the Ulster final. There is no "GAA famine" in Cavan. There's a Senior Intetcounty trophy famine. I'd love it to end as much as the next man but let's keep things in perspective.

You completely avoided my second question and went straight to copying Kerry and Dublin. So I'll ask again, what exactly is wrong with current coaching in Cavan from your own experience. And how does it need to change?"
JonSmith if Cavan_Shambles told it how he sees it and how I see it I feel there would be uproar for the truth would hit to the core. By the way you know this as well. He is right off course about the number of clubs but this is as it is for tradition everyone wants to hold onto their history and rightly so but sadly while we have so many senior clubs and Intermediate clubs playing as seniors we will alway's be in trouble. Having said that the best player in the current county senior set up is from a junior club so where do we go from there.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 10/02/2019 19:50:38    2164236

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Replying To The Quiet Man:  "JonSmith if Cavan_Shambles told it how he sees it and how I see it I feel there would be uproar for the truth would hit to the core. By the way you know this as well. He is right off course about the number of clubs but this is as it is for tradition everyone wants to hold onto their history and rightly so but sadly while we have so many senior clubs and Intermediate clubs playing as seniors we will alway's be in trouble. Having said that the best player in the current county senior set up is from a junior club so where do we go from there."
Utter rubbish. Look at what divisional teams have done for cork football as an example. They create more problems than they fix because every division wants a rep on the county panel.

On the other hand take a look at how meath used all available players under sean boylan.
Players like John McDermott, donal Curtis, Ollie Murphy, evan Kelly, Jody Devine, enda McManus, nestor, tommy dowd, Brian Stafford and a whole lot more, plied their trade with mid range clubs. Management just had that knack of picking players to do a job. It can be done.

MadgeKing (Cavan) - Posts: 493 - 10/02/2019 21:17:07    2164284

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Replying To The Quiet Man:  "Strange reply Mattie got relegated and came right back up and everyone wanted his head so why not look for the heads of the present management 3 losses so far in the league and more than likely three more to follow. How can any county board that have their county team in Division 1 give a new manager the okay to concentrate on the championship and forget the league if this is true we as supporters have been betrayed and cheated plain and simple. I don't believe that they allowed this to be ratified if yes they should all resign in block. But I fear this did not happen they would never be that stupid would they???"
People wanted McGleenan's head because he was a bluffer. Have a listen to some of his interviews. He came in spouting about attacking football and then reverted to type. We were rudderless when he left. The 2017 capitulation in the Qualifiers vs Tipp was the worst Cavan management performance I saw in a long time. Tipp simply pushed up on us and Mattie hadn't a clue what to do.
Terry had the team going places in 2016 when we were performing well but McGleenan, and you can argue all you like about leaving us back in Division 1, sent us backwards. He was a lucky manager more than anything - lucky to beat Tipp in the league last year and lucky to beat Down in the qualifiers.
Give the present management team. They are proven and deserve time.
As for being a "supporter", other than being overly negative and dismissive of the team and their efforts, I don't see much support from you.
Still, at least it appears you won't have a crisis of conscience next year because it looks like Cork are on their way to Division 3 if we're in 2 - every cloud has a silver lining.

BreffniGuide (Cavan) - Posts: 474 - 10/02/2019 21:57:29    2164308

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Replying To JonSmith:  "You can't force amalgamations. The clubs need to vote for it. The clubs don't exist to serve the county team! Look at the counties that have made resurgences in recent years, Roscommon and Monaghan most notably, haven't tore up the fabric of their club scene to try produce more county footballers. We are not Kerry and we don't need to try to be Kerry, we don't need amalgamations. It's been attempted and it didn't work.

We just had the best Senior Championship in years. Our intermediate champions reached the Ulster final. There is no "GAA famine" in Cavan. There's a Senior Intetcounty trophy famine. I'd love it to end as much as the next man but let's keep things in perspective.

You completely avoided my second question and went straight to copying Kerry and Dublin. So I'll ask again, what exactly is wrong with current coaching in Cavan from your own experience. And how does it need to change?"
Monaghan didn't have a dysfunctional club system to begin with. Neither do Roscommon. Cavan have, per capita, one of the highest number of clubs in Ireland, the other two being Laois and Leitrim, neither of whom are competitve counties. There is a correlation between a lower number of clubs per capita and inter County success. Even in our own history, we won most of our titles with a reduced number of clubs. Clubs will vote for it with persuasion and a coherent explanation as to why its necessary, i.e because we haven't been competitive in fifty years. I think its so regrettable that some cavan supporters are facing their entire lives without much to cheer about.

As for your second point, I don't need to be familiar with the intricacies of forward coaching in Cavan to see that there are glaring deficiencies in the production of scoring talent and a new approach is warranted.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 10/02/2019 22:14:19    2164318

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Replying To BreffniGuide:  "People wanted McGleenan's head because he was a bluffer. Have a listen to some of his interviews. He came in spouting about attacking football and then reverted to type. We were rudderless when he left. The 2017 capitulation in the Qualifiers vs Tipp was the worst Cavan management performance I saw in a long time. Tipp simply pushed up on us and Mattie hadn't a clue what to do.
Terry had the team going places in 2016 when we were performing well but McGleenan, and you can argue all you like about leaving us back in Division 1, sent us backwards. He was a lucky manager more than anything - lucky to beat Tipp in the league last year and lucky to beat Down in the qualifiers.
Give the present management team. They are proven and deserve time.
As for being a "supporter", other than being overly negative and dismissive of the team and their efforts, I don't see much support from you.
Still, at least it appears you won't have a crisis of conscience next year because it looks like Cork are on their way to Division 3 if we're in 2 - every cloud has a silver lining."
I am not worried about Cork for I want Cavan to succeed so there will be no crisis of conscience for me in any way shape or form. You say we have proven management may I ask at what please. I will give Micky credit at club level but who else has won at management in the Cavan set up. Mattie was not the bluffer but the players in the dressing room know who was thats for sure and he was not a Tyrone man.
You say give the present management team a chance I will off course give them a chance and this time next year let's see where we are at for there will be no excuse why the best are not in on the panel for he will have no other distractions to interfere with his progress going forward. I fear right now we are in big trouble. Having watched the Monaghan Galway match if Cavan cannot get change from Monaghan we are in deep S*** sadly.
Anyway 6 points to play for? win all of them we stay in division 1 but it's not going to happen.
I have backed most managers over the years and it is the same for Mickey for I know his heart is in the right place but managing an Inter-county team is completely different from managing a club team and he will have learnt that at this stage.

Look we have some great players in Cavan please god next year they will get a chance to show it by being brought in. Don't ask me to name them for you know who they are if you watch as many matches I did.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 10/02/2019 22:52:41    2164329

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